IndyRef 7

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

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itsallgoing... we can agree to disagree on the positions. And i can abhor and condemn violence and intimidation on both sides.

And while it is a minority - i have seen the nasty side of the yes side focussing on the hatred driving the vote. By defintion isnt a no vote about being part of a union with your neighbour? Where a Scot is voting no - who are they hating? themselves? Scots who vote yes? Perhaps my analysis isnt coming across as clear. But I dont see racism in even the nastiest of the No speakers but i hear an awful lot in the yes. I have seen some unpleasant behaviour from the no side and it is deplorable and will not have anything to do with it. However, pointing out the massive downsides and uncertainties associated with a yes vote is neither bullying or unpleasant as some suggest.

By Itsallgoing to be fine happy to disagree with you.

I don't mention my DC on these threads through choice Weatherall. Doesn't mean I don't have any.

I believe my children and grandchildrens future would not be well served by plunging us in to a lengthy period of economic turmoil which I think is worse than we would be likely to see as part of the UK.

I've also talked about an awful lot more than my current job or the short term.

Re: a rUK crash after Scottish independence- Scotland could enact measures to protect the most vulnerable.

We could create jobs.

We could distribute reduced earnings more fairly.

I think we would be shielded from the type of austerity policies WM has followed during this recession.

How on earth is discussing economics patronising Celtic?

Roseforme the (yes it's a minority, so please don't take offence non-bigoted Yes voters!) anti-English stuff is depressing to me because these are parents who are "pillars of society" types but oh they are ignorant, their kids slag off Scheme dwellers too. Oh and they are all voting yes for a socially progressive Scotland. Aye right!

So do you think we could agree to disagree on this? I can find evidence easily, but in the past I have been accused of bringing unpleasantness onto the thread and "trawling" for evidence.

I assume that's aimed at me?

'evidence' can be found from both pov all too easily, anyone can Google, the disgrace is that a) it happens in the first place and b) some people try to point score from it

Stat- I wasn't thinking of you specifically

Statistically I don't think anyone can accuse you of being patronising. You have been a fantastic poster on these threads. Your posts are always factual, well thought out and really contribute to the debate

nothing to do with discussing economics its all it is the constant put downs about no voters calling them dim and misguided and racists. It's unpleasant and uncalled for, but it does smacks of desperation for a side that appears be having to face up to the possibility that they may lose the vote!

'evidence' can be found from both pov all too easily, anyone can Google, the disgrace is that a) it happens in the first place and b) some people try to point score from it

I completely agree. The problem is it is always the No side who bring it up and then I feel compelled to point out it is on both sides

Another bunch of flowers for Statistically. Could we club together for some real flowers!

Sorry that post was for statistically not it's all.

I've actually lost count of the times I've been told to get out of Scotland or similar as a No voter. Its the same sort of quick, intolerant reaction that is often used as an excuse for violence. The inability to accept a differing viewpoint to your own.

As for personal racism, I don't look quite Scottish but I look Scottish enough to not look obviously non-Scot, IYSWIM. But on closer inspection, I must look slightly different enough, because I get constant little digs and comments about my appearance (which is unremarkably average in most ways). (have an Asian grandparent). Its very intolerant. Its like some people think everyone should look the same (if they are white). I probably also have a different outlook from the average Scot (if there is such a thing) not least in part due to being mixed race, and I find the attitude that you dare to think differently about things from some Yes supporters really astonishing.

Weather - Scotland could enact -what measures precisely? How will the money needed be found.

For what its worth, the UK is a 2.5tn economy - Scotland leaving wont cause a crash. There will be difficulties and uncertainties for a lot of companies operating here and this will pay out in the stock price in the short term.

You think we would be shielded? How? Your currency will be 100% controlled by London. Most of your jobs will be in companies based in both countries. Do tell?

As for positives - the UK is a growing economy - there are more jobs now then for a very long time, this means longer term, better prosperity. A stable legal and political climate encourages people to set up firms, or invest. This creates long term security for the population. chopping and changing your national borders and changing your currency does not encourage job and wealth creation. Stable currency, coherent legal systems, strong human and property rights - clear political systems all create the environment where countries flourish. This is here now - that is your long term positive

If my posts have galled you Celtic let me know.

I am pointing out my experiences and I'm frustrated with a few people's attitudes in real life. The gap between the Yes rhetoric and the reality I see is irritating me.

I think weatherall, people possibly do not want to sink so low as to use their children to make political points.

What I have seen on FB today has had a couple of people sinking so low with regards to their support for independence, I'm actually really upset and sickened. I never thought people that I knew had it in them to behave like that, or make comments like that.

celtic maybe the fact you feel patronised or belittled says more about you than this discussion which on the whole, with one or two exceptions, has been excellent.

So the thread for questions is open. SC get in there - you say what I try to say so much more eloquently

You've just proved my point wildthong

Odd Scotland could enact -what measures precisely? How will the money needed be found

Its the people of Scotland who will pay the money needed. Not some fantastical corporations like Amazon who are going to set up in a heavily unionised country like Scotland with a reputation for lower productivity than its European neighbours and bad behaviour like at INEOS. They will be taxed to death, and told everything is wonderful, and reports like in the Soviet Union with its infamous six year plans, etc. will be trotted out to prove it.

It won't comply with the entry conditions to the ECHR and the EU because of what it is having to do to keep barely financially afloat.

I do wonder what worst case scenarios could be, because that is sensible, without having to mention children Weatherall. I could imagine serious depopulation in 20 years time, Lithuania style. I could imagine the Shetland Islands voting to remain part of the UK, and Scotland being involved in increasingly acrimonious discussions over territorial ownership of increasingly reducing oil reserves.

"I think some of the no posters on this thread are doing sterling work for the Yes campaign."

Yes I agree with you Celtic, every time one of the No posters speaks out in negative terms about Better Togetherness, they just reinforce why many want to vote Yes all over again...

Appreciate that Barbar I do no think for a minute that people haven't experienced unpleastness and racist attitudes, on both sides. It's just that I feel the no's are really trying to talk this up to point score.

"I think we should question why Scotland is producing so many poorly educated intolerant people. "

Shocking stereotypes again....please give over to this, it's getting tiresome now.

WildThong So the thread for questions is open. SC get in there - you say what I try to say so much more eloquently

I have a question about how a government proposing a more just and fairer society on independence cannot tackle rife fraud and corruption in its own capital city and has a record of dropping criminal charges relating to it as "not being in the public interest" and how could its citizens be reassured that things would improve in an independent Scotland, which would lack the protection of the ECHR and the EU's Four Freedoms.

But I suspect if the Yes camp had a sensible answer to all of that, we would have heard it by now, and it would be laid down in writing in the White Paper, and/or legislation already drafted.

What I would get in response from AS would be something like "An independent Scotland would have as its one of its primary aim membership of the EU and the ECHR. An independent Scotland is going to provide a fairer and more equal society for all its citizens. As one example, one of our first policies would be to abolish the unfair and divisive bedroom tax, introduced by the Tory Government at Westminster blahblahblah".

The trouble with that vague bit of dogma, "a fair and more equal society" is that it can be used for all sorts of awful behaviour in the excuse of achieving it.