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Original poster

Indyref 6

999 replies

StatisticallyChallenged · 06/09/2014 19:42

Welcome to indyref 6

Spidergirl8 asked close to end of last thread:

What impact would independence have on fiscal policy and economic stability
What impact would the ageing population have on the future
Is the predicted future a positive one, based on fact

If the bite goes no, what has actually been achieved? Does that not just put Scotland on the back foot?

Let's try and give not too biased answers please!

OP posts:
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Original poster
StatisticallyChallenged · 07/09/2014 17:37

xposted with just about everyone!

OP posts:
Sallyingforth · 07/09/2014 17:40

Ye yes I understand all that. I'm just wondering what policies a possible Labour government will adopt - would they maintain close links with a UK Labour party (possibly in government by then) to work for things that the present UK government have refused the SNP?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/09/2014 17:40

while posting a link twice to a twitter a/c which shows nastiness towards independence supporters.

The implication has been that the abuse is soley coming from the Yes side. I was refuting this with evidence.

"It really seems to be the No voters on this thread who are obsessed with nationalism.
Particularly those who think the SNP are Nazis. Its fascinating"

It is fascinating, and a very interesting view into how peoples minds work.

sconequeen · 07/09/2014 17:42

I wouldn't be surprised to see a number of new parties emerging after a Yes vote. I also think that there is a growing move amongst ordinary people away from the strictures of political parties and towards discussing individual issues on a case-by-case basis. Both of these developments would lead to better debate, engagement and decision-making IMO, and an independent Scotland with a new constitution would open up great opportunities for participation. Westminster does not offer this opportunity.

PhaedraIsMyName · 07/09/2014 17:50

Great just what is needed. Lots of single issue new parties to squabble with each other in a unicameral chamber.

Coupled with views like IrnBru's questioning why I should vote at all as only a yes vote means I'm interested in Scotland's well being.

Sallyingforth · 07/09/2014 17:51

scone You make that sound attractive.

I wonder though how wel-equipped such new parties will be to deal with the aftermath of a Yes vote, which will still be very much on-going after the election. Will any one party claim sufficient support to deal with the many serious issues?

I will await developments from outside, with interest.

Sallyingforth · 07/09/2014 17:52

crossed with Phaedra, we're thinking alike!

Criseyde · 07/09/2014 17:53

"I'm just wondering what policies a possible Labour government will adopt - would they maintain close links with a UK Labour party (possibly in government by then) to work for things that the present UK government have refused the SNP?"

It will be very interesting! You won't get much indication of future policy directions in an independent Scotland from them now though! In fact you won't get much indication of any policy directions that differ from the WM Labour party at all. The only thing that's pretty clear is thatScottish Labour party intend to introduce university tuition fees in a devolved Scotland. Jim Murphy refused to back free tuition on the last tv debate he took part in, and JL said it "needed to be looked at".

I would have (modest) hopes for a reinvigorated Labour party in an independent Scotland. They have a lot of work to do. But if they could ditch their focus on swing Labour/Tory voters in rUK, ditch the narrow neoliberal agenda and refocus on social justice, then there would be a great capacity for an independent Scottish Labour party to work closely with WM Labour on harmonizing fiscal policies such as corporation tax, while also strengthening support for people on low incomes in Scotland.

In the event of a No vote, the future for Scottish Labour is not looking bright. They are alienating Labour voters left, right and centre. The way things are going there could be a No vote and they would still lose seats in Westminster.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/09/2014 17:55

This is interesting re SNP/other voters:
"Among the 1,084 adults polled by YouGov in early September, Labour's pro-independence voters outnumbered the SNP's pro-UK voters by two to one."
www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/07/poll-scottish-independence-nationalist-yougov?CMP=twt_gu

sconequeen · 07/09/2014 17:55

Phaedra
The current party system doesn't work, even in the UK. Turnouts are abysmally low. One of the fantastic things about this campaign in that so many people are talking about it. Loads of people have made sure they were on the electoral role (with electoral registration offices staying open to midnight on the deadline date to make sure people could register). We need a new political landscape.

I've said before that both sides of the debate believe that they want the best for their country. I've not said that you are not interested in Scotland's well-being.

There is no saying that there will be unicameral chamber in an independent Scotland. A constitution will need to be developed, and it will need to have a system of checks and balances as well as separation of powers.

PhaedraIsMyName · 07/09/2014 17:56

Sally you and Scone have introduced an interesting point.

I loathe Salmond and Sturgeon and don't trust either of them but they do at least have experience. The idea of there being a resurrection of whatever Sheridan's party was called having any involvement in piecing structures together is terrifying.

Criseyde · 07/09/2014 17:57

"Will any one party claim sufficient support to deal with the many serious issues?"

The AMS in HR means that it is very hospitable to small parties. In its second term the SP had 7 Greens and 6 Socialists sitting. Only in the last term has there been an outright majority for any party, so working in concert and coalition is very much the norm for the SP, not a sea-change.

PhaedraIsMyName · 07/09/2014 17:59

Scone no you didn't say I wasn't interested in Scotland's well being. IrnBru however posted that she couldn't see why I would bother to vote.

IrnBruTheNoo · 07/09/2014 18:01

"IrnBru however posted that she couldn't see why I would bother to vote."

What I meant Phaedra is why bother voting either way (yes or no) if you don't really care much for living in Scotland, or don't want to own a Scottish passport etc. You don't seem to feel very strongly about Scotland, not many nice things to say about the place.

Sallyingforth · 07/09/2014 18:03

It really would be "living in interesting times".

You could have a Scottish Labour Party in power that hadn't wanted independence, having to deal with all the problems that independence brought - sterlingisation, negotiations to join the EU, etc etc.

chocoluvva · 07/09/2014 18:06

My point about eligibility for voting in the referendum is valid if (obviously it's only an if) like me, you think the only justification for voting yes is from a strong sense of being Scottish. If voters whose eligibility is fairly short-term residency, therefore are unlikely to have a strong feeling of being Scottish, vote as a protest against the current government, with the result that I am no longer part of the UK I'd be annoyed. They can't vote in the GE but they could be the difference between us being independent - likely forever - and continuing as part of the UK.
The questions is, "Should Scotland be an independent country?". Surely that's for Scotland and UK to decide. So an EU member resident in Scotland for a year reads the white paper and thinks, 'That sounds like a jolly good socialist utopia - I agree with the principles of socialism so I'll vote yes,' regardless of the massive consequences that have nothing to do with socialism (or any other ideology) Then leaves Scotland.... while the Scottish no voters who were born and live here have to suffer the consequences....

But it's always going to be difficult knowing how best to decide on who the electorate should be....

PhaedraIsMyName · 07/09/2014 18:07

Again please point to any single post on MN on any thread where I have said I don't like living here. Or have said unpleasant things about the country. Indeed I regularly sing Edinburgh "s praises.

I am deeply sceptical about the promised socialist utopia if that's what you mean.
Again , however your claims I've said I don't like living here or have decried the place are more inventions.

sconequeen · 07/09/2014 18:08

The idea of there being a resurrection of whatever Sheridan's party was called having any involvement in piecing structures together is terrifying.

Not as scary to me as the thought of still being in the UK and ruled by a Tory/UKIP coalition.. (And I'm not a socialist.)

I agree with Criseyde that Holyrood already has a culture of working in concert and coalition. I think this would continue post-independence and give a more balance outcomed than the swinging between the main two parties which happens in Westminster and which cuts out minority parties (with the exception of the LibDems, of course, who have been happy to sell their souls for a seat at the top table - but that's a different story!)

PhaedraIsMyName · 07/09/2014 18:10

Sorry that was in reply to IrnBru who claims I have repeatedly said nasty things about Scotland and that I don't like living here. Which is completely untrue.

Criseyde · 07/09/2014 18:10

Yes, but similarly, you could have the SNP in power in Holyrood, who wanted independence, having to deal with all of the problems that staying in the Union brought - the rise of UKIP, the impact of TTIP on the Scottish NHS, Westminster's hostile immigration policy, WM foreign policy decisions, leaving the EU...

WildThong · 07/09/2014 18:11

I am interested to see what George Osbourne proposes next week. I wonder if the polls being the way they are will encourage the extra powers to be enhanced. This would be good news IMO.

Sallyingforth · 07/09/2014 18:13

I've been in email correspondence with a senior local politician preparing papers for the Party Conference (I'm not saying which).

I asked if the position on rejecting a CU was definite, and expressed my strong aversion to any change of mind.

The reply has just come in!

"You and a million others - if xxxxx changed his mind now, heads would roll"

Original poster
StatisticallyChallenged · 07/09/2014 18:14

Slight detour - has anyone seen Rupert Murdoch's tweets?

Now, I suspect we can all agree that this man is a bit of a weasel. What's he playing at? He normally has his head so far up WM's collective ass he probably doesn't know whether it's day or night (or maybe that should be reversed?!?!) but I've seen evidence of him being pretty pally with Salmond too. All a bit...odd. Not someone I would ever take at face value.

OP posts:
Criseyde · 07/09/2014 18:15

"I wonder if the polls being the way they are will encourage the extra powers to be enhanced. This would be good news IMO."

I think it is too little, too late for people to really believe in this death bed conversion to devo max. And given that many people have already actually voted, deeply undemocratic.

Polonium · 07/09/2014 18:15

scone queen - what are you politically? Which party would you be voting for in a general election? You mostly seem to have a hatred of the union with no real political ideology behind that hatred.