Indyref 6

[StatisticallyChallenged]

Welcome to indyref 6

Spidergirl8 asked close to end of last thread:

What impact would independence have on fiscal policy and economic stability
What impact would the ageing population have on the future
Is the predicted future a positive one, based on fact

If the bite goes no, what has actually been achieved? Does that not just put Scotland on the back foot?

Let's try and give not too biased answers please!

Forgive me if this has already been posted, I'm new to the thread.
This is a beautifully delivered explanation of a yes vote

This is well worth a read too

wiggley I sat through 2 minutes of someone wittering on about the inforendum and giving facts and information leading to a song which is based on nothing more than emotion and an attempt to guilt trip listeners into voting yes.

I disagree profoundly with Deborah Orr's starry eyed spin .

All I can add at this time of night, is that there's a new datelinescotland skit...

I am also feeling sick at the thought of a close Yes vote.

I hate the fact that we've all been forced into this divisive Yes or No decision. DC and WM I think have misjudged badly and by refusing to allow the DevoMax question on the ballot have created this very unBritish situation. Why couldn't they have been more collaborative ? Much better to bring the majority of the population slowly down a road step by step than rather petulantly say 'Well, yes or no, just decide'.

If we'd had the DEvoMax option, I think most would have been happy.

If there's a Yes on the 18th, I'm trying to imagine the moment the British Army hand over Edinburgh Castle. Hong Kong is the nearest I can imagine - with probably the same level of opposition to the whole thing.

The gloating triumphalism if there is a yes vote is likely to be unbearable.

I doubt there will be any attempt to even begin to understand many of us will be profoundly sad at the break up of our country.

Actually Phaedra, I've been giving that some thought; the sadness. I've been reading a lot and trying to understand the opposite pov, and many people have mentioned sadness at the breakup.

And I do understand it, though it's on a "heart" level rather than a "head" one.

But, y'know, people of England, Wales, and N Ireland, we'll still be here, a few (hundred?) miles to the north/a bit to the east. We're not suggesting new barriers or travel difficulties. We don't want to rebuild ancient walls or create new boundaries. You'll still be very, very welcome to visit.

The only difference is that we'll be standing on our own two feet, not camping in the garden and claiming to have left home.

I think yes Scotland were always expecting a big surge towards them at the last minute. There are stalls, shops, yes newspapers, leaflets, meetings, canvassing everywhere just now. The momentum is huge. So many windows have yes posters up.

I think a lot of people see a yes vote as not just a rejection to WM and the current Tory lib dem coalition but to mainstream politics in general. I remember how hopeful people were in May 1997 when labour got in. But them becoming red Tories to appease middle England and the City just disillusioned the labour heartlands in Scotland. They were left with no one to vote for. So many will be voting for the first time next week and they are voting yes because it is their chance to be heard, having been invisible for so long. WM has to listen to us now.

Emotive language such as 'breaking up' and 'profoundly sad' is alright when it's coming from yourself as a BY supporter?

It's not helpful. It doesn't have to be an emotive, dramatic break up. I'm not voting yes to build barriers between us. For me it's a case of 'we've got this, thanks, we'll take it from here'. We'll still be neighbours, allies, friends. We just want to take the next step and go it alone.

EU scaremongering isn't a vote winner. BT have figured this out which is why they haven't been pushing the issue in this stage of the campaign.

I am pro EU but when I've been out canvassing I soon found out that most people are anti EU and see a yes vote as a way out!

I believe the argument for yes still holds even if we aren't in the EU or EEA. We certainly aren't going to pap out our EU migrants and it will be a massive boost to our fishing industry. I imagine we'd have a free trade and movement deal with rUK because of our 'historical' connection.

Your accusing the Yes campaign of telling lies?

Have you actually seen what the No campaign has been saying?

What lies Lady?

People are quick to mention these 'lies' but can't really quantify the claim.

Lady c and no matter how many lies the no side tell, no matter how much they twist the truth and ignore facts they will never persuade half the population of Scotland to vote for them.

In the event of a no vote the other half will find they have been lied to and will be equally as unhappy as yes voters. Things are going to be horrible

Lies?

I got a 'no' leaflet through the door the other day.

It said tesco will put up its prices 16% in an independent Scotland.

Tesco quickly refuted this.

Now who's lying?

There are lies everywhere.

I loved Salmond saying Scots could enjoy free movement ..... Er yes, in Scotland..... Get past a border control if you want to come to England. Though British/English border controls are about as effective as wet toilet paper!

Tesco probably said that to avoid getting pulled into the debate pre September 18.

www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk/blog/would-price-groceries-be-higher-independent-scotland-few-reflections

Scotland is a smaller market with a spread out population. The additional costs of serving that market are currently smeared across the UK. It is quite likely that costs will go up post independence as the firms won't be able to smear the costs anymore. Same goes for a lot of other services from Royal Mail to the price of cars.

As a way of an example, the costs of goods in Canada are generally more expensive than in the US even though the same companies operate in both countries. That's just the way it is. Smaller market = less economies of scale & higher prices.

I disagree Lady C. I think in the event of a yes vote the whole of Scotland will realise that this currency union impasse and other campaign tactics are just that, and will put pressure on their politicians to negotiate for the best route to separation for Scotland and rest of the UK .

Why the need then for these continued threats and petulant hand slapping? Discussions will need to work out what is best for both people. Trying to hurt scotland for wanting independence is ridiculous. It wouldn't wash between individuals, so why would is wash between nations?

Whoever it was who said they were angry at Westminister for not including Devo max is spot on. All this should not be being handling in this stupid childish cynical campaigning way.

Although depressingly I'm sure we'll see a lot more of it in the next fortnight.

www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk/blog/state-debate-lessons-quebec this is interesting reading. lots of parallels and interesting to see what happened there in the event of a really close vote

"Emotive language such as 'breaking up' and 'profoundly sad' is alright when it's coming from yourself as a BY supporter?

It's not helpful. It doesn't have to be an emotive, dramatic break up. I'm not voting yes to build barriers between us. For me it's a case of 'we've got this, thanks, we'll take it from here'. We'll still be neighbours, allies, friends. We just want to take the next step and go it alone."

Very well said, LovelyRita.

"The latest poll will be causing palpitations in Westminster."

Aye and they didn't even bother with a contingency plan. Who's laughing now!

the whole of Scotland will realise that this currency union impasse and other campaign tactics are just that, and will put pressure on their politicians to negotiate for the best route to separation for Scotland and rest of the UK

And for the people of the rest of the UK currency union is probably not best. Additional costs of trading with Scotland, if it was using a different currency, would have to be offset against the possible risk of rUK have to bail out an iScotland (which is a risk in and currency union e.g. EU rather than a comment on iScotland specifically.) The most recent poll in rUK found that those who were opposed to CU outnumbered those in favour 2:1. Willing it or putting pressure on Scottish politicians won't make it so.