To not be sure if a 17 year old boy can be in the right headspace to train as a midwife?

[Boysclothes]

I know a few male midwives, all older guys who are nurse converted and are all great. No problem with it at all.

However a friends son wants to be in a caring profession and she has asked me to have a chat with him about becoming a midwife, direct entry so training from next September. She knows a bit about it and thinks the autonomy/quicker progression/pay etc makes it more desirable than being a nurse.

So, I'm just musing here as I know the admissions tutors will make the decision they see fit, but I'm not sure if a just turned 18 year old lad could cope with or make sense of midwifery. It's just so very female isn't it? And if he hasn't got much experience of women, it just seems a bit... I dunno.... Inappropriate, possibly?

I'm going to tell him about the realities of the job but what are your thoughts?

And really I can't see what she's said wrong anyway. She's said that at a vulnerable moment she would really not want a teenage boy near her privates.

Why has that opinion attracted so many posts? She was one poster who said it once, and there have been a whole bunch of posts from different posters mentioning it, as if it was a big theme of the thread.

There must be a reason why some women (again excluding abuse victims) feel very strongly about male professionals being near their genitals whereas other women just aren't bothered.

Well it's pretty obvious isn't it? It's the way they were brought up. I am not the victim of sexual abuse, however still wouldn't want a teenage boy near my undercarriage. Different families work in different ways - some families happily wander round naked in front of each other, whereas others are very coy and are taught the body is private and something to hide. Others are naturally shy. It's really not rocket science, simply a bit of empathy.

Like this " it's not quite the same thing as all the silly "Eww - I don't want a man looking at my fanny" comments. "

There was only one though.

Why try to make out it's been a big theme?

And why tell that poster who feels that way that she is immature, has no "credibility" and so on. These type of posts are applying pressure to women who are judged not to have a "good enough" reason to have a preference, not to exercise that preference.

A woman who is told on MN by multiple posters that she is being irrational, unreasonable, prejudiced, childish and so on might well feel out of line for expressing a deep-felt preference in situations where actually she is perfectly well allowed to express it and it might be detrimental for her not to.

I don't understand why people would be happier with that situation. Making women feel uncomfortable / upset at a sensitive time in order not to make some men maybe feel a bit uncomfortable.

Hester that is true ans also most women have been the victim of something by men. Been followed / wanked at / felt up / shouted at etc etc and so on. This stuff is really common.

You don't need to have been a victim of more serious abuse to have had a bad time due to more than one man. Most women in the UK have those experiences. If some of them react by not feeling comfortable in certain vulnerable / pants off situations with men then that is up to them. They are not being "unreasonable" or childish etc etc.

I don't get it myself, I would (and have been) perfectly accepting of a male midwife and doctor- but I can see others have quite strong feelings regarding male midwives. I don't the age should be an issue, but think that attitude would be the thing that I can see being the deciding factor.

As a obstetrician, I feel very sorry for the male medical students (and the few male student midwives we have had)- so often they get excluded and get little out of the experience. I understand that women cannot and should not be forced to allow male students examine them or observe their care, but I still find it a bit saddening that women feel this way.

In the case of medical students, even if they aren't going to go into Obs & Gynae, they may well need those skills such as pelvic and speculum examinations (or even just taking a full patient history) in order to give women the best care possible. It's a shame they don't get as good an experience and a chance to hone their skill as the female students. I didn't find nearly the same problem in urology

The other thing is, men quite often don't get much choice when it comes to intimate care as on many wards there are no male nurses. For instance, many male patients are catheterised by female nurses- if they requested a male it would quite often not be possible. Catheterisation for a male is as intimate and personal as it is for a woman.

Catheterisation for a male is as intimate and personal as it is for a woman.

I don't know. I think it's kind of different actually, for reasons explained well by SevenZarkSeven above. Most men have not been made to feel intimidated by women when it comes to that area, whereas for women, a lot of the vulnerable feeling comes from entrenched fear of violence and humiliation. It's true. Having a catheter put in by a female nurse in private is not the same as having legs akimbo and being peered up, or having someone's (a man's) hand go up there. It just isn't.

Exactly Hester. It is NOT the same.

From the male patient's perspective it probably is just as intimate though. I wonder how many male patients undergo treatments and procedures where they don't feel comfortable because it's a female who is doing it.

It is a shame there aren't any male posters giving us an idea of how they feel about female nurses treating them when it comes to their genitals...

Again, given that all patients do have the choice to ask for a different medic and any woman who feels vulnerable should be supported to make that choice during childbirth, or any other gynea procedures.

Why should men not be allowed to be midwives? Or is it OK that ALL men are treated so shabbily because of the actions of a minority?

There is still a conflation of 2 ideas here and it is not at all comfortable to read.

What if a patient had religious convictions that made them deeply homophobic and reject an openly gay clinician?

Would that be ok, if they just didn't want to feel 'uncomfortable at a sensitive time'?

Personally, I'd call that discrimination although again, in practice, I'd support a patient's wishes being accommodated where possible. (I stress 'in practice' and 'accomodate' because in principle I'd find it fucking outrageous and therefore would struggle to truly empathise, because I'm not prejudiced like that).

Erm... oh never mind. That was covered up thread and is enshrined in law and policy already. Again that just muddies the waters.

I agree nomama. I am also very uncomfortable with the assumption that all men should be cool with women catheterising them. You cannot possibly judge this as a woman.

But men should be allowed to express a preference as well, and they are, the same as women.

No-one has suggested that it should be allowed for women to express a preference and men should not, have they?

I mean I can well imagine that lots of men might prefer to have a man in intimate / personal situations, in other situations some men might prefer a woman.

And that's fine, isn't it? For them to request that, and have that request met where at all possible?

I think so anyway. If a man said he would like another man to perform a procedure to do with his genitals, I would understand that and not question it. I certainly wouldn't call him prejudiced, immature, unreasonable and all of the things that have been levelled on here by women at other women.

But I don't think as many men care about the opposite sex treating them compared to how many women feel strongly about it.

If on a male based forum they were discussing a female nurse doing catheterisation I doubt very much that there be the same reaction that this thread has caused and probably nowhere near as much opposition.

I think it's quite right that patient experience runs the whole five years but I do think entry should be at 21, not 18.

I had a male student present at my son's birth. He must have been about 18. Think I was his first birth too. Poor lad! Fair play to him if that's what he wants to do.