To not be sure if a 17 year old boy can be in the right headspace to train as a midwife?

[Boysclothes]

I know a few male midwives, all older guys who are nurse converted and are all great. No problem with it at all.

However a friends son wants to be in a caring profession and she has asked me to have a chat with him about becoming a midwife, direct entry so training from next September. She knows a bit about it and thinks the autonomy/quicker progression/pay etc makes it more desirable than being a nurse.

So, I'm just musing here as I know the admissions tutors will make the decision they see fit, but I'm not sure if a just turned 18 year old lad could cope with or make sense of midwifery. It's just so very female isn't it? And if he hasn't got much experience of women, it just seems a bit... I dunno.... Inappropriate, possibly?

I'm going to tell him about the realities of the job but what are your thoughts?

What's wrong with having something just for women? What situation in life is more women centred than childbirth? Why in the name of all that's logical (and perhaps non-PC) does everything have to come down to a war of the sexes? Men cannot give birth. It's wimmin's business as far as I'm concerned. Yes, there are a multitude of men-folk involved in the process, from consultants to anaesthetists. But I think the person who is 'with woman' during her labour should be another woman.

I don't even know why I feel like this, but I do. Equality be damned. Yeah, I did type that previous line. And I'm at pains to point out that this is one of the very few roles in the world that I have an issue with men fulfilling (I have a couple of others). I'm sure they are capable, but at the end of the day, they are not female. And midwives, in my view, should be female. Shoot me. Do you think if men were to the ones who gave birth they'd want women with them? I honestly don't. And I'd bet my bottom dollar they'd get their way on that one. And we women being, on the whole, and empathetic sorta breed, would probably think this is ok and agree it should be men only in the labour ward. Or am I wrong?

Now to backtrack all over the shop. As things currently stand, men can be trained as midwives. So, let this man/boy go forth and go for it, if he so wants. I personally think 17 is a ridiculously young age to even be considered for such a role, be it man, woman or beast, but hey ho, that's only my humble (and likely ill informed) opinion.

Well sure but it's not at an individual level it's at a group level.

So saying well this male midwife is gay so logically you need to be OK with him and this female midwife is a lesbian so you must be uncomfortable with her is kind of missing the point and honestly I think people who suggest that are just stirring really.

because in our society everybody knows that some things are split between men / women and it's not based on individual sexual preference but between what genitalia they have.

Most women who do not want a male in certain situations don't do so because they think that actual man is dangerous. They feel that way because of socialisation about men as a group and / or things that have happened to them that have been done by men and so they feel uncomfortable with men in situations where they are vulnerable.

Saying oh well so you must be fine with a gay man then / not fine with a lesbian is working at an individual level and missing the point entirely. Most women who don't want a bloke in with them don't think this actual bloke is a pervert / fancies them / wants to look at a fanny or whatever women on this thread have been accused of thinking.

My DS isn't brought up to objectify women. He's been brought up to see it when it happens and realise how stupid it is.

To be the poster who asked if I recognise that there are certain circumstances where gendering of jobs is relevant then yes of course I can see the reasoning. It is of course a sensitive time and plenty of women, myself included, would feel funny about having a bloke peer up into their nethers.

However I also think that in childbirth all dignity is lost anyway. I had a male doctor stitch me up and couldn't actually care. It is a time when you have to get personal pretty quickly and I think if I saw that the young lad was genuine and respectful I would think "good for you" and actually be proud to help him get the experience he needs.

It's all down to personality really and there are plenty of men that have the empathy needed for a job like this.

Plus there would be one lad in the world who actually knows what women's bodies are really like, not that airbrushed plasticised version boys are used to seeing.

No-one, man or woman can train to be a midwife at 17, for crying out loud. They have to take A levels first. The earliest they can start training is 18.

Saying that, when DS2 wanted to do some work experience in a hospital they said he was too young at 17, but he could do it in Maternity. He, very politely, declined. I did think it was odd, he couldn't see broken bones (which is what he wanted), but maternity, they didn't say in what capacity, was okay!

That seems very odd, fairycaravan.

Is it because birth isn't a "medical" procedure (unless it is IYSWIM)?

But, um. Seems like a strange place to say is the best and only fit for a 17 yo work experience person, especially a boy. (waits to get stamped on).

I did work expereince at the local hosp, just remembered that! I was in a blood lab type place. Oh and they sent me in to chat to some old people on a ward.

I'd have freaked right out on maternity! And freaked the women out too most probably.

DS2 would have been fine with old people, he loves old people. He freaked out when they offered Maternity!

I'm not surprised

You know when people tell you stuff and you just feel proper baffled. That's where I'm at with that!

Well even 18 is too young, for crying out loud. IMO.

femin, I'd be uncomfortable with being looked at sexually in the non-sexual, close-quarters context of a changing room by a man or a woman.

Seven, if you mean me, I'm just trying to understand what separates me from men, as fellow people, if it's not about sex.

Can I not examine this idea and take it to bits without it being 'stirring'?

You have been born and raised in the UK as a female, presumably.

So you know our cultural norms around these things.

As to "why" well you need to look at a whole lot of social history, going back a helluva long time.

Still I think that most people who are raised in a society understand the cultural norms instinctively don't they, having been immersed in them since birth.

Oh and you might want to look at some stats around violence / sexual violence as well. They might be instructive as to why some / many women are uncomfortable being in vulnerable clothes-off type situations around men in general.

As well as the societal norms stuff.

Clearly in different cultures taking your clothes off in mixed groups might be much more normal. But you will still find women who in certain situations don't want a bloke doing whatever it it.

I think that dignity should not be lost during childbirth. IME, this and the attitude of some HCP contributes to the feeling of a traumatic birth and subsequent PND.

Women in labour or at antenatal appointments should not be ambushed by students. It's very hard to say no when two HCP's are standing over you. It's all about power and control.

TheFairyCaravan - You can start school at 4 as I did. So yes you can be 17 when you finish your A Levels. And I know there was at least 1 kid in my year who was moved up a year so was 17 when they went to university.

All boys/men are brought up to objectify women. They are taught that through the media, adverts, computer games, porn, and our general culture.

Cultural norms are not set in stone and I'm interested in the future.

So, it's not that I don't understand norms or the history behind them, it's that I question their validity and want to leave a lot of ours behind.

I want men just to be other people to me, not 'men', so it would make no difference about the sex/sexual orientation of a clinician.

I don't think I'm expressing it very well, sorry.

I know what you mean something. That just because someone is a 'man' that doesn't mean they are something different or something to be wary of. They are just a person, just like I am.

Society needs to change before vulnerable people need to have their cultural norms challenged IMO.

Once you have a society without heavily socialised gender roles, prevalent and rarely punished VAW, and all the rest of it, then barriers between the sexes will start to disappear.

You can't put the cart before the horse though.

What is VAW?

The fact that so many women have responded the same way about how they wouldn't want a male midwife (excluding those who have a history of abuse) just reinforces the fact that gender roles and barriers between the sexes are still in full force.

Violence against women.

I don't think that anyone has said that gender roles aren't very ingrained in our society, at least not that I can remember on the thread.

femin DS2 started school at 3.8. He had to do Yr2 twice because the junior school wouldn't accept him at 6.

Lots of children start school at 4 and leave at 18 and still follow the normal path of education.

It is highly unusual for people to start university before they are 18.

And TBH how many women haven't had a bloke do something to them at some point. It's hardly rare.

That's the elephant in the room here isn't it. There are plenty of dodgy blokes around, women and girls are socialised strongly to "laugh off" stuff at the lower end of the scale and remain silent about stuff at the upper end. We are exhorted to not walk alone after dark, to not get drunk, to not go off with men we don't know etc etc and so on.

So women are steeped in this, and then when they say, oh actually I'd rather not have a man I don't know up my nethers actually, she is told she is utterly unreasonable.

It's all quite interesting but I find the ongoing (albeit often subtleish) assertion that women ought to get over their concerns and fears so as to give men a fair go really discomfiting.

Thanks, Writer.

The thing is, when I look at how men see and treat women, generally, I do despair.

But I think where I'm going is that it's our stupid ideas and hang-ups about things that have created and lock us into this ridiculous state of affairs.

It's perfectly possible for it to be different if we are brave enough to start rejecting what we 'instinctively' believe to be the case and put in place more sensible ideas about equality and respect.

I'm a bit aghast to see the sum total of all the less pleasant / bad / downright horrifying treatment of women and girls at the hands of men dismissed as women's "stupid ideas and hang-ups".

If lots of women are cautious of men then maybe they have good reason.

Who are you to tell them they are being stupid? Or that it's a "hang up" ie irrational?

Don't you read the news? Have you seen the stats?

Women and girls are constantly being told to ignore stuff, or that it doesn't matter, or that they're making it up, and when I see women doing it on MN it just makes me feel angry and sad at the same time.

I say that men need to earn the trust, as a group, before women need to treat them with "equality" in sensitive matters.

Not vice versa.

So if 18 is too young for midwifery then at what age should you be allowed to train? And is nursing/medicine the same?

It's an individual thing, I know some very mature 18 year olds, I also know plenty of 30 year olds who I wouldn't want to deliver me a pizza never mind my baby. But the training a midwife goes through very soon sorts the wheat from the chaf(f?), if you can't communicate and empathise, never mind your gender or age you will not pass the course and I think it's becoming more difficult to pass, even since I have been qualified I see far more students fail for issues that may in the past have been deemed irrelevant.