To not be sure if a 17 year old boy can be in the right headspace to train as a midwife?

[Boysclothes]

I know a few male midwives, all older guys who are nurse converted and are all great. No problem with it at all.

However a friends son wants to be in a caring profession and she has asked me to have a chat with him about becoming a midwife, direct entry so training from next September. She knows a bit about it and thinks the autonomy/quicker progression/pay etc makes it more desirable than being a nurse.

So, I'm just musing here as I know the admissions tutors will make the decision they see fit, but I'm not sure if a just turned 18 year old lad could cope with or make sense of midwifery. It's just so very female isn't it? And if he hasn't got much experience of women, it just seems a bit... I dunno.... Inappropriate, possibly?

I'm going to tell him about the realities of the job but what are your thoughts?

Our first patient interaction as 18 year old medical students was a consultation with a pregnant woman in a gp surgery. Not dissimilar to what a mw will be doing probably. Still don't get what the problem is.

Stonethe - elderly people are equally entitled to refuse personal intimate care from someone of the opposite sex. (The difficulty arises when there is no-one else available, of course.)

Childbirth IS different by its very nature - wiping someone's bum in an old people's home does not involve internal examinations, as childbirth may well.

And you are deliberately exaggerating when you try to claim the only alternative is unemployment. He's not even ready to look for work yet, he's still at school!

I also know plenty of mws who have never "birthed" and are frankly miserable old battle axes.

To exclude all women that haven't given birth personally is also frankly ridiculous

Stone - If you cant see the difference between a consultation with a pregnant woman in a GP surgery and birth I despair.

yes, i definitely cared right through to the actual birth about who was in the room.

I wouldn't have minded if he was trained and knew what he was doing.

As long as the woman is allowed to say if she doesn't feel comfortable with having a young man there thenI say good luck to him he sounds like a nice guy.

Yes I cared too sanfairy as did the midwife, as I would have expected her too.

I have had private consultations with Drs while a very young student sat in the room. That really is no big deal. And to be frank probably just pretty boring for the student. Very very different from watching and then soon after assisting at a birth.

I had a male medical student in the room when DS1 was born. I needed a ventouse, he hadn't seen one before asked politely and I agreed. By that point I had a male obstetrician, a male paediatrician and a male anaesthetist, as well as a 2 female midwives and a female student midwife. Oh, and DH.

I really didn't care who was there. I was knackered, DS1 was in distress, I just wanted him born.

I have been present at births and intimate examinations when I was a student nurse, so as far as I was concerned I was paying it forward.

I have, also, had lots of medical students present when I have had intimate examinations done by male pelvic surgeon. The bones need to be felt from the inside too. More people have seen and examined my vagina and pelvic region than I care too remember.

I totally appreciate that some women don't want male midwives/doctors due to being abused or raped and I respect that. But how are people going to learn to become practicing HCP's if they don't get the experience?

Fairycaravan, you might be comfortable with being prodded and poked because of your background and karma but why should others even if they have not been raped or abused.

I find this idea that I have a moral obligation to be a medical guinea pig so that HCPs can be trained or (as others suggested) in the interests of equal opportunity frankly ridiculous. Since when did my body not become my own?

When I was pregnant with dd, I had a roomful of doctors and medical staff observe my ultrasound scans because dd had a very unusual heart condition. It was standing room only and I consented even though it was an emotionally distressing time for dh and me to find our first child had a heart condition that doctors did not quite know what was wrong. However, if at the birth, I did not want to have one or a roomful of men looking up my fanjo then I refuse to be apologetic. I am uncomfortable with the idea and that is that.

I don't allow students and never, never will again.

My birth issues and my emotions are not a learning experience for other people.

When I greet women as a student it is "I'm paleontologist I'm working with your mw today is that ok with you? " if people don't want students then that's fine with me.

Unfortunately I have heard middle aged male gynaecologists talking in horrible ways about women. Age has nothing to do with it.

When you are in a job/training with that level if responsibility you grow up fast. You have to or you won't succeed. And trust me after a while doing this kind of work, people's private parts are just another part of the body. He will be totally unphased, and his training will teach him to be respectful if his patients and their needs and dignity.

I do know the difference person - I have given birth myself. But much of a midwife's job is also consultations in a gp surgery isn't it?

I'd imagine they'd start him off with something like that before actual birth.

I think he will become a mature young man who has a good knowledge of normal women's bodies and the intricacies of the birth and pregnancy process. What a great education for a young man, better than the average man's knowledge of the female body and processes.

And for those of you not wanting to be "guinea pigs" by allowing students into births/consultations that is your choice and your right. But how do you think the trained/experienced staff managed to get to where you were? Would you want a fully qualified mw/dr looking after you who had completed their training but never been allowed to see any births as a student?

I agree - all midwives were students once, do people forget that?

How will his training teach him to be respectful etc, StoneTheFlamingCrows?

As it hasn't done that with the middle aged gynaecologists

I don't give a shit how the trained midwife was a student once.

I've NEVER had a good experience.

I have had crappy awkward comments over birthing my breech STILLBORN daughter

Bad jokes about what I was wearing after finding out there was no heartbeat

Appalling treatment while registering her stillbirth

Student sonographers struggling to find the heartbeat in my rainbow pregnancy after I've explicitly said I need to see the HB immediately.

I'm not being a fucking guinea pig anymore.

And I hate when the student is there asking to be allowed in, it makes it hard to say no. The mentor should ask out of earshot. And they shouldn't be asking when no students is emblazoned all over my notes.

I agree, Something, minimum of 21. For active combat, too.

The idea of a person having a moral obligation to offer their body as a learning tool repugnant.

Slithytove, I'm so sorry to hear what happened to you

I'm also very sorry to hear of so many distressing experiences from posters on this thread and I perfectly understand why some of you don't want men performing any intimate examinations and why others don't want students present.

I wouldn't say there is a moral obligation to offer one's body as a learning tool. However, I do think from a pragmatic point of view it's important for students to learn the job. So it's a fortunate thing that many of us are quite happy to have students involved in our care - properly taught in advance, properly supervised while they're doing it, etc etc.

Everyone has an absolute right to bodily autonomy.

But those who are happy to have students involved are not just doing a favour - students can be an asset. In my sister's pregnancy, it was a student who bothered to read her notes properly and spotted the test result that showed gestational diabetes - the doc and midwives had missed it.

My other sister had a labour lasting 36 hours. A student midwife came on shift on Day 2 and stayed until the bitter end. Great support to my sister.

Actually, Thesameboat, I think in some situations it is fair to deny someone the same opportunity as another based on sex. If, for example, a man wanted to work as a counsellor in a women's refuge, it would not be appropriate - which is precisely why there are exemptions to the Equal Opportunities Act ( or whatever legislation covers this now). If I wanted to work in a male prison, supervising shower/bath time would I have the right to cry "sexist" if I was denied the opprtunity to do so? No, of course not - because it would not be appropriate for me to supervise naked men showering when a male is available to do the same job.

I am not disputing that a male is just as capable of doing the job as a female but it is quite natural for a female to prefer to be examined, in a highly intimate manner, by another female. Why does the need of the wannabe male midwife trump that of the majority of women.

And as for it being a class thing, I disagree. I would be just as put out at having a male doctor examine me as a male midwife but, sadly, we often have no choice.

Problem is you don't know until it all goes wrong whether they have been properly taught or will be properly supervised.

My sonographer said oh of course I'll find the HB first. 1 minute (an eternity when you have been in the position of never finding it again) and hysterica from me later, the trained sonographer stepped in. She should have shown me the HB and then passed it over to the student.

The student for my breech delivery was meant to be observation only. Sounds great except she had foot in mouth syndrome, felt the need to fill the copious silence, and ended up saying "well at least you don't need a section now". I'd have had a thousand surgeries to bring my daughter home.

I've had my share of students. Done my bit at massive personal hurt.

Fwiw, all but two of these students were older than me at the time. I was 25.