To not be sure if a 17 year old boy can be in the right headspace to train as a midwife?

[Boysclothes]

I know a few male midwives, all older guys who are nurse converted and are all great. No problem with it at all.

However a friends son wants to be in a caring profession and she has asked me to have a chat with him about becoming a midwife, direct entry so training from next September. She knows a bit about it and thinks the autonomy/quicker progression/pay etc makes it more desirable than being a nurse.

So, I'm just musing here as I know the admissions tutors will make the decision they see fit, but I'm not sure if a just turned 18 year old lad could cope with or make sense of midwifery. It's just so very female isn't it? And if he hasn't got much experience of women, it just seems a bit... I dunno.... Inappropriate, possibly?

I'm going to tell him about the realities of the job but what are your thoughts?

Also on the racism comparison. I think it makes a difference whether you are talking about patient preferences or university admissions/hospital recruitment. It's very important to separate the two.

There may well be a very big difference between a woman refusing care from a man and refusing care from someone because of race or religion or something else. There you're talking about individual circumstances and also whether care is likely to be helpful or effective.

The question of whether someone should be able to become a midwife based on their sex, age, race, religion or anything else that doesn't actually relate to their suitability for the job. Refusing someone entry to a university course because some patients (and only some patients) might not want to be treated by them is just as problematic whether that reason is based on their sex, race or whatever.

I'm also unconvinced that having had a baby makes anyone any more qualified to deliver one or more likely to empathise with women in labour.

Over five full-term pregnancies, I have encountered two male midwives. One did some of my ante-natal and post-operative care in the community. I liked his calm manner, his attitude to hand hygiene and the fact I knew he was married with a child so I felt he had some understanding of what I was feeling. As I had had a c-section, he had no need to look more intimately. My experience is that, in the throes of labour, one doesn't much care but, in the cold light of day, it can be a bit uncomfortable (which is what I felt at an internal examination after one birth at my 6 week check by my GP).

The other was on a ward after my latest section. I found him unempathetic, arrogant and patronising but that may have been his youth (he was 21/22) as much as his sex. People who had trained with him spoke highly of him, but I wasn't impressed and felt he needed to be kinder and more understanding, I felt very processed. It seems to be wrong here to say it, but in general the midwives who were most understanding were those who were a little older and had had children themselves. I appreciate the need for young midwives to gain experience, and I can't think of a time I refused their attendance, but that shouldn't be at the cost to my peace of mind and dignity. Also, I have experienced a FT stillbirth so my pregnancies are more medicalised and stressful so I need to have confidence in whoever is working with me and to be able to relax. Had I been attended by the second one I mentioned, neither would have been the case.

It wouldn't bother me.

I do agree women should be able to request a female hcp if they want but I don't see that this young man's age or gender should mean he can't train to be a midwife,

Quite saddened by some of the attitudes to young men/older teens on this thread. Plenty are mature enough to do this job. I had young hcps at sone of my births, the best hcp when I had my dd was s young male trainee Dr.

Also my ds1 was at the birth of madthing5, he was 11 at the time and was amazing, the midwives commented on how well he handled the birth and that he was better than many older birth partners.

Him seeing his baby sister be born was an amazing experience for both of us, he cut the cord and we have some lovely pictures if him holding dd when she is just minutes old :) it was an experience that means a lot to him, he loves his sister, now 3yrs old and is a very caring, mature boy.

we have a 17 year old apprentice at work and tbh I cant imagine him having the maturity to deal with women in labour

You do realise that not all 17 year olds are the same. I know some people in their 30s and 40s that wouldn't have the maturity to deal with women in labour. That's why admission to the course is based on assessing whether particular individuals are suitable.

I'm also unconvinced that having had a baby makes anyone any more qualified to deliver one or more likely to empathise with women in labour.

But think of the potential for passionate AIBU threads, as people tried to untangle whether women who had had maternal choice c-sections and no experience of labour should be allowed to be midwives...

I think if it's his choice & not his mums then good on him & I hope he does well. I'd have had no problem with a male midwife, young or old.

I meant to say, I have no problem with male midwives but I shouldn't have to be seen by one if I am uncomfortable in the situation.

I don't think there is anything wrong in requesting a different person deliver your baby.
The midwife who I was first allocated for DC3 bullied me in school and is married to an employee of DH. To be fair to her she asked me if I minded her being there I said yes and someone else came. I had to wait longer than I would have liked but that was my choice.

I do think for many women it is a knee jerk reaction to not want a male midwife, when if a consultant or anaesthetist were required and happened to be male they would probably not object so much.

Personal preference does just come down to sexism though, and I think that sexism is wrong.

Not when it's something as personal and emotional as pregnancy and childbirth, I don't think.

And I wouldn't have wanted any 17 year-old involved in my care thankyouverymuch.

TwoandTwo: the lack of empathy and arrogance of the second male midwife you encountered was probably just because he lacked empathy and was a bit arrogant. It doesn't need to have anything to do with his sex or age.

The problem when people are in a (numerical) minority is that other people far too often make them into an example of their 'type'. So one bad female mechanic becomes a general issue with female mechanics or one bad male midwife becomes a general issue with male midwives. However, the crappy male mechanics or female midwives you might encounter don't stand in for everyone of their type. They're viewed as individual aberrations.

I wouldn't have minded a male midwife. Having had my bits stared at and prodded by a fair few beardy middle aged oddballs (aka consultants) over the years in some ways I'd prefer a nice polite younger male who was a "real" human being. So long as they are kind, polite and good at their job I really don't mind who it is.

Hand on heart, I would be as fine with having a male midwife as a female one. Which is to say, slightly uncomfortable about talking about certain subjects and them seeing my fanjo.

It wouldn't occur to me to treat a boy who was interested in midwifery differently from a girl. I'm not saying that because it the 'right' thing to say but because I genuinely wouldn't see it as an issue. My DS is a third year medicine student and has already done hands on work in obstetrics. He didn't see it as anything other than normal. He also had hands on experience in an STD clinic which he said was a bit odd as so many of the clients were a similar age to him.
I would just trust the admission processes and the staff involved in training.

I had an EMCS when my daughter was born. Taken to the post-natal ward in the early hours, still very groggy from the general anaesthetic. I had been very keen to bf but at that point all I cared about was that we were both fine. I had briefly wondered what would happen about feeding now but assumed bf would now be impossible.

When I got there, a youngish student mw (female, maybe about 23-25) was waiting. She said 'I've read your birth plan and I see you want to breastfeed so let's make a start'. She picked up my daughter and put her in the right position. My daughter was probably also a bit groggy so both of us were being manipulated into position and neither of us was in any position to help. The mw did it all. I've no idea how successful that feed was in nutritional terms, but it did the trick psychologically. Now I knew that I could still bf if I wanted to, I was keen to make it work and I had the great good fortune to have nothing but kindness and support from my mws (all ages, but all female). This was 22 years ago and I've never forgotten it. I fed my daughter for 15 months and went on to feed my son for 15 months. I put it all down to that one student, who I hope is still practising and doing well.

Thank you, wherever you are.

Would it have made a difference if she'd been a young man? I don't think so, if he'd had the same personal qualities and expertise.

PS In terms of being a show for medical students, I raised hopes there. My daughter was breech and for a time it looked as if it would be a vaginal delivery. I was asked if I minded student mws and medical students coming in to observe. I didn't. I had the impression that dozens of them were converging on Lewisham Hospital to get this rare opportunity to tick another box off on the log. However, in the end it was off to surgery. Sorry, folks!

I had a great male hcp when I had ds1.

He tried to help with my latch and had a lovely manner. I seriously didn't care that he was male after birth.

Two other female hcps were dreadful. One overriding my wishes and the other being so unhelpful and critical in helping me try to feed. Plus she clearly didn't wash her hands properly and kept putting her hands on me to manipulate my boob to the baby, which is great, but absolutely stunk of smoke.

Lots of people won't care, especially post birth but he would need to be sensitive to women who may be uncomfortable. I would say that applies to female hcps too though.

Mimsy: I had a medical student in for DS2's (horrible 36 hour) delivery. She was done with her placement and needed her final delivery to get it signed off. Unfortunately, after the poor girl hanging around for several hours it became clear it was going to be an instrumental delivery (which had to be performed by the qualified doctor). The Ace Ventura registrar was a nice guy who let her hold the ventouse while he did the whole thing so she could claim it as her delivery. He even managed to make jokes while doing so.

Student nurses are also straight into placement and see vaginas, penises and lots of other body parts.

Good on him if he has chosen a career he wants to pursue.

OP, do come back and tell us how your chat went. Did he turn out to be interested?

Of course, at 17, it is quite reasonable that he would be having chats with lots of people to help him work out what he wants to do next. Even if he decides midwifery is not for him, the conversation with OP will be helpful.

I would be fine with it. I just want someone competent with a reasonable bedside manner. I do get that some women may not be comfortable with it though.

I actually can imagine some make partners objecting and insisting on a female tbh. I've come across a few of these knobs guys over the years.

I also agree with Woo to a degree. If a request can be accommodated then of course it happens. It's not always possible though. I worked in a uro-gyne clinic where lots of the women requested a female surgeon for religious reasons but there wasn't one available.

I started direct entry midwifery training exactly 20 years ago – there was a young lad on the course, probably no older than 18. He and I shared a mentor. I couldn't believe his level of immaturity - he actually said to me one day after an ante natal clinic "urgh - I had to touch her belly" - god knows what would have happened if he had reached a labour ward placement - he decided pretty quickly it wasn't for him. On the other hand a guy who started on the course the following year (still a young guy) went on to become a fantastic midwife - probably one of the best I have ever known :)

I think its great that he wants to train as a midwife BUT we have a 17 year old apprentice at work and tbh I cant imagine him having the maturity to deal with women in labour. Also with the nature of pregnancy labour and birth I just cant imagine having him doing an internal examination etc

There are many 30 year olds i wouldnt trust to look after my goldfish and 16 year olds i would trust absolutely with my children. (At 14 i was a looking after 4 preschool aged children part time during the summer and was more than capable) I find that those who are so immature dont tend to apply for or want roles that involve a lot of responsibility. The 17 year old you know might be immature- that has no bearing at all on what a completely different 17 year old is like.

I went to the UK to have dd2 and had a male midwife...I didn't even think about it at the time, (male midwives don't exist where I live) and I have absolutely no complaints about him.
But, if he was 17, I am not sure I would have been so comfortable. It just seems very young.

Midwifery is pretty hard to get in to these days. Even if someone too immature to cope manages to get on to the course, they'd very quickly be found out and wouldn't last the course. It would be the same regardless of their age or sex.

Similar things happen on other professional courses (e.g. Education or social work). Sometimes students start the course but really can't cope with the demands and expectations of those professions. They drop out or are shuffled off into non-professional courses (where they can't do any damage).