to ask where indyref Part 5 is?

[grovel]

Well?

Statistically- the common weal is a well thought out plan to eradicate poverty in an independent Scotland.

Have any of the main parties said they are supporting it or plan to implement it?

As a side note: has anyone else felt like the wider, not just mn referendum, debate has become something of a class war?

I can almost predict what side people are on. Most of the people I know who went to private schools are no voters. Most people I know with comfortable lifestyles are no voters. Hardened labour loyalists are no voters. Most of everyone else is yes.

There are going to be a lot of unhappy people on the 19th. Hmm.

Statistically I'm really sorry you've been upset - it did descend into really unpleasant stuff last night - luckily for me I was offline. But your posts are incredibly helpful for those of us who are not up to speed on the figures and how to interpret them.

weatherall I haven't looked at the common weal in detail. I suspect the recent Land Reform recommendations are related, which altho I'm very sympathetic when 50 or so individuals own so much of Scotland, I feel are drifting into communism.

However, the No side is hampered with its links to Orange order, BNP etc

Links to BNP? That is really scraping the barrel and quite pathetic.

As for the Orange Order they will presumably be supporting the Union. Personally I've never knowingly met anyone who was in it and I'm not aware of there being any link between Better Together and the Orange Order.

Statistically- it has widespread support amongst grassroots snp supporters esp the younger ones. A resolution on it was passed at the snp conference.

After the vote I can see the snp splitting in 2 with one side going down the common weal route with the ' lower corporation tax' lot going another way.

Have any of the main parties said they are supporting it or plan to implement it?

No, but in the next general election in an iScotland everything is to play for. If enough people want Common Weal policies they will elect politicians who claim too feel the same

The orange order are having a march specifically in defence of the union.

They are hardly on the sidelines.

I haven't heard anyone from BT condemning them.

Yes land reform is desperately needed in Scotland.

The "Common weal" is as much a well thought out plan to eradicate poverty as a Soviet 5 year plan was.

Links to BNP? That is really scraping the barrel and quite pathetic.

Sorry not BNP, Britannica Party they are pretty indistinguishable. You may have heard the thing about the Britannica Party guy, campaigning for the union kicking a woman?

As for the Orange Order they will presumably be supporting the Union. Personally I've never knowingly met anyone who was in it and I'm not aware of there being any link between Better Together and the Orange Order.

The link is they are all campaigning on the same side.

The "Common weal" is as much a well thought out plan to eradicate poverty as a Soviet 5 year plan was.

Have you actually read it?

A class thing? I don't know anyone who went to private school in my real life and yet I know lots of no voters. True that in my locality the most vocal yes voters are people who sit on their sofas pontificating about how the wealth should be spread out more equally whilst my wages are taxed more to keep them in more comfort. I went to the local comprehensive, so did all my friends. My doctor however is a yes voter and so is our local friendly lawyer.

I don't see it as a class thing at all, but I do see Yes voters as unable or unwilling to consider anyone else's point of view. I'm now hiding all indyref that term my teeth itch threads. Have woken up this morning to find a paper shoved through my door telling me I'm apparently an English Bitch. Fanfuckingtastic. Dreading the 19th.

Never heard of "the Britannica Party" so still think you're doing a lot of very nasty barrel scraping.

But here's some tit for tat , I know SNP members who refer to English born people who have moved to Scotland "white settlers"

That's fine ItsAllGoingToBeFine and it's good that it has support. Personally, I don't base my voting intentions on a non-governmental report which has some support in some parties. Reports with ideas of how to tackle various elements of poverty, taxation issues etc are produced by charities/foundations/research bodies fairly frequently and whilst many of them have great ideas they often don't go anywhere. So whilst I agree with reading, researching and thinking about what you would like iScotland to be it's not something I personally would base my vote on.

As an aside - my own personal experiences make me feel that outright eradicating poverty is probably not realistic. Reducing it dramatically, fine. But it will never go away entirely...doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

I openly condemn the orange order, BNP etc. I think they are a scourge on our society. But so are the incredibly abusive Yes voters I'm coming across, who actually are developing a very powerful voice of their own especially online. Which is where a lot of this is being fought out especially amongst the younger generations.

Blimey these threads move fast - Weatherall I found some figures on fuel prices in Europe - we do pretty well actually compared to most other European countries.epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/File:Half-yearly_electricity_and_gas_prices.png

Also just to return to defence and terrorist threat - did anyone hear Woman's Hour yesterday morning - they were talking about female jihadis and evidently there are far more radicalised women from Sweden who have gone to 'fight' (become baby factories) than from the UK.

Itsallgoingtobefine yes I've read it.

Even it's made up name annoys me "the common weal" Many councils have historic"common good" funds and lands not "common weal"

A class thing? I don't know anyone who went to private school in my real life and yet I know lots of no voters

In don't think it is a class thing either, more of a viewpoint on life.

No voters think that everyone should be responsible for themselves, should pay their own way, that if people work hard they will live well. People are poor because they are lazy.

Yes voters think that people should look after each other, that people need a strong welfare state, that hard work is often very poorly paid.

Statistically - I respect your views even if I don't agree with them. You have made some points which have made me review my position to see if it still makes sense, and that is the mark of a good debate so please keep posting!

Have any of the main parties said they are supporting it or plan to implement it? That is one of the things which excites me about the Yes campaign. I think it has the potential to translate into a new Scottish political structure far beyond the strictures of current main-party set-up.

Weatherall: I don't think it's a class war as such but there are a lot of people entering the debate on the Yes side who are motivated by a social reform agenda.

Thanks WhatWouldFreddieDo . I found some of the comments last night, and actually over the last few days, really quite offensive. I hate the way some people are determined to polarise it into YES=good selfless people who care about the poor and food banks and NO=self centred tits who don't give a f*

Good morning everyone.
Annie
I'm not sure if we were talking at cross purposes last night. I was trying to show that iScot would have to make a better job of defending itself than some pacifists would suggest. Switzerland is an example of what an apparently innocent harmless country has to do.

Seriously, Itsallgoingtobefine. You still think this is true or even an acceptable way to polarise and stereotype people?

"No voters think that everyone should be responsible for themselves, should pay their own way, that if people work hard they will live well. People are poor because they are lazy.

Yes voters think that people should look after each other, that people need a strong welfare state, that hard work is often very poorly paid."

Because I sure as hell don't think that, nor have I said it at any point. And I'm a no voter.

Something I've noticed from the no people on these threads- I don't think I've seen one say 'the union will make life better for my children and grandchildren'. Their arguments seem to be all about the here and now.

Even if they are right and the economy does suffer a temporary blip the reason most of us are yes voters is because of the long term benefits.

I see the initial negotiations and adjustments as like the the jobs you do early in your career to lay the foundations of a secure and prosperous life.

If WM was ever going to make scotland prosper we would have already. HR is only 15 years old- not even a generation and has done well with so little.

Never heard of "the Britannica Party" so still think you're doing a lot of very nasty barrel scraping.

Not barrel scraping, just a simple look at who us registered on which side. And unfortunately, the company we keep can cause us to be judged in a particular way.

But here's some tit for tat , I know SNP members who refer to English born people who have moved to Scotland "white settlers

1. That's anecdotal. Proof?
2. There are numpty individuals on both sides. The official registered participants are the public face of the campaigns.

Reports with ideas of how to tackle various elements of poverty, taxation issues etc are produced by charities/foundations/research bodies fairly frequently and whilst many of them have great ideas they often don't go anywhere.

Because WM does not have to listen to what Scots want.