Indyref Part 4

[SantanaLopez]

Evening all :)

I did shake myself out of it pdq LadyCordelia!

I'm sure I'm very identifiable. Hence NCing regularly.

Deeedeee yes it's like shouting into a black hole in here most of the time.

I posted a video this morning but none of the No campaigners have bothered to watch it or respond to it. But then spent hours almost a full working day asking questions that were answered in the video. Face desk.

I do think there are lurker a who, not surprisingly, are too scared to post because of the nastiness of project fear.

Re: tonight's tv debate I think it's a mistake to have BS there. He is a liability, just like TS and GG for BT.

on another theme, I will simply be so sad if it's Yes.

I was born in Britain, in England as it happens (although I have never felt the need to identify as English - always 'British' - before the Indyref campaign started)

I then had the good fortune to marry a Scot and move up here.

So if we split, will I be British? or 'English' for the first time in my life? or will I feel I need to adopt my husband's nationality ?

Deeedeeee.

There are nearly 4000 messages in this set of threads. There are hundreds of thousands across the past few years. I am sorry you feel ignored, but these threads move very quickly. I pick out the posts I feel are particularly interesting or particularly wrong.

With you the buck stops at your economic context that you can't see beyond. Fair enough. Vote no. That's fine. But don't insult me and suggest I lack intelligence because I don't hold the same things as important to you!

I really, really take an issue with this. You, and the yes campaign are not superior. You do not have a special power of sight that I, and the No campaign, (who I do not work with, never have, never will) are missing. Stop trying to claim the moral high ground.

Not quite, Setanta. Being part of the CTA hasn't meant that Ireland hasn't managed to retain autonomy over much of their own immigration policy. Granted, it's stopped them signing up to Schengen, but their policies for non EEA workers/residents are different to the UK.

Most importantly, students from non-EEA countries are still able to gain post-graduation work visas very easily - something that the UK government has made massively difficult. This is a huge disincentive for top class overseas students to come to the UK - they can go to a variety of other countries where they know they can get valuable work experience postgraduation. It's not enough to return to your country of origin with a European/North American degree anymore. Like anywhere else, graduates increasingly need work experience too.

An independent Scotland can have a non EU immigration policy that suits us.

The current reserved system is designed to suit se England.

Scotland had the successful 'fresh talent' initiative a few years ago where international graduates could stay in Scotland for 2 years for 2 years. WM got rid of this against Scotland's will. How was that fair or democratic?

Hmmf, I've been here for years, different names but had this one for ages.
I am not a plant. This is a plant.

It's such an underhand tactic to use the decision of now retired snp politicians in 1979 as a reason to reject a multi party drive for independence 35 years later.

If that's all they've got to throw at us it doesn't say much about their arguments.

I would like to make clear that I don't think WM's policy is wrong for the UK. I can see why they've chosen it. But I do think it is wrong for Scotland. And business owners I've spoken to have concurred with that. I'm near Aberdeen so there's plenty of oil folk around to discuss this with.

Would have liked to watch tonight's debate but dh is watching some dark web thing on Horizon.

Santana but morality and politics do overlap.

Not relating to the Indy debate in particular but political issues such as war, wmds, poverty, international aid, abortion etc are also moral issues to many.

It doesn't surprise me that some people will see a moral argument for yes. It's not about being 'superior' it's just how people see some of the more sensitive human issues.

Blimey, went off for a few days and come back to screeds of posts. I'll never catch up, esp as now I have to go and eat soup. . Fascinating discussion though.

It's such an underhand tactic to use the decision of now retired snp politicians in 1979 as a reason to reject a multi party drive for independence 35 years later.

I thought it was bizarre that Better Together posted a quote of Alex Salmond's... from 1994. Okay, he did say 20 years ago that a Labour Government wouldn't work for Scotland, but things change. I wanted to be a princess, live in a sweet shop and have my own pony 20 years ago, my priorities have changed somewhat although I still want a pony.

Not quite, Setanta. Being part of the CTA hasn't meant that Ireland hasn't managed to retain autonomy over much of their own immigration policy. Granted, it's stopped them signing up to Schengen, but their policies for non EEA workers/residents are different to the UK.

You mean me? :)

I was going on the government analysis.

^Given the scarcity of skilled immigrants and the difficulty of attracting them, a policy of population increase through immigration suggests a less selective approach to which immigrants are allowed to enter and settle. An independent Scottish state seeking to grow its population through immigration would instead seek to attract higher numbers of low- or
non-skilled migrants to achieve this aim. This would be contrary to the immigration policies currently being pursued by both the UK and the Republic of Ireland within the CTA and could therefore put these arrangements under strain.^

pdf

Salmond is promising to attract a huge amount of immigration. Was it near 25,000? I don't think it's realistic to say that Westminster will immediately sign up to this. Ireland is slightly different because at least they aren't on the same landmass.

Reading the Irish stats, the vast majority of their immigrants are still EU members, about 60% from these limited figures.

Santana but morality and politics do overlap. It's not about being 'superior' it's just how people see some of the more sensitive human issues.

I am not saying that they don't, but there's a certain way to word your arguments. I dislike the way a lot of yes posters phrase it- as if they are the Chosen People

There's a line between accusing us No voters of being lying, selfish, scum of the earth oligarchs and saying, well, I recognise these economic points, but I've thought about it and I'm still willing to risk it.

Inatthedeepend- I think that's a really interesting question about independence being a means to an end (a more lefty govt). I do think some people are voting yes for this reason.

I personally don't particularly consider myself a leftist. I'd rather we taxed low and middle income household less and had more efficient public services.

I'm likely to end up worse in a high tax high spend economy. But I don't think a country's success is measured by its GDP.

I think independence will have a positive effect on the Scottish psyche, improving public health.

It's about what's best for the Scottish population as a whole, not 'how much money will I have in my bank account on independence day'.

On immigration, if we vote no we will definitely continue to have an immigration policy that works badly for Scotland. If we vote yes we will probably be able to improve it. The only definites are that the current system doesn't work for us and in the event of a no we are stuck with it or whatever stronger policies are implemented by WM.

It actually made me chuckle when I read the post about how a good few of the no campaigners are bankers.

Not a group known for their ability to predict the economic future.

Ooooh hello! Thanks for finally responding to me.

The more I think about it, the more it is completely plausible that polo cal parties would employ people to post on mumsnet. Doesn't even really matter if you're a new poster or can wax lyrical about cubes of poo and penguin bollards. In fact all the better if you've been paid to do it for years, or the indentity has! The more I think about it actually the more likely it is. :-)

"Ireland is slightly different because at least they aren't on the same landmass.

Reading the Irish stats, the vast majority of their immigrants are still EU members, about 60% from these limited figures."

I think you'll find that ROI is on the same "landmass" as part of the UK.

Regardless of what you think of the SNP's proposed immigration policy, it's misleading to imply that being part of the CTA and or EU doesn't mean that an iScotland wouldn't have control of other aspects of it's immigration policy. I'm particularly concerned with the restrictive measures that Westminster have put in place which make it very, very difficult for talented overseas graduates to work in the UK for a brief period post-graduation. I think it will be immensely damaging to the HE sector in the long term.

Listening to that video now weatherall. (I'm feeling patronised already with the focus on one aspect of my identity) and but thanks as I find the speaker likeable and eloquent and agree with some of her points.. but I disagree with her in that I don't think voting Yes will improve the lot of Scotland. I think she's spot on that it will help Edinburgh based politicians get on, that's what Independence says on the tin really.