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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref Part 4

999 replies

SantanaLopez · 01/09/2014 21:11

Evening all :)

OP posts:
LadyCordeliaFlyte · 02/09/2014 18:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FindoGask · 02/09/2014 18:20

Well, personally speaking I'd say I have every right to vote, as I've lived here for twenty years, got married to a Scot here, have two Scottish children, am in employment and pay my taxes here... I think I'm pretty invested in the long term future of the country I've made my home.

But I do agree, it seems a shame that Scots who are temporarily away can't vote. Although I do know of at least two who are still registered voters here despite living abroad, and who will be using their vote.

Criseyde · 02/09/2014 18:24

"I am mildly annoyed that people who aren't scottish but live here have a vote, yet those who are Scottish but temporarily working away cannot vote"

I am really glad that this vote is being made on the basis of residency and not 'nationality' or ethnicity. I'd rather not get into the ugly business of judging which people "aren't Scottish" or British despite living here...

Numanoid · 02/09/2014 18:32

Now thats what worries me the most. People deciding on an issue that will have massive ramifications on a worldwide scale (and I am NOT exagerrating there!) and potentially change the future direction(s) of one (two) of the most influential and important countries ever known, because "that bloody advert got up my nose" ;-)

The people I know, at least, haven't done so because of the advert alone. From what I understand, it was the last straw after the campaign got more and more ridiculous in their minds. One of them is now undecided, though, and hasn't just changed to a Yes vote. :)

I don't think decisions should be based on campaigns alone. It's fair enough if people want to, after all it's up to them why they vote a certain way, but I would also hope that more people come to a decision after doing some research!

Numanoid · 02/09/2014 18:33

I am really glad that this vote is being made on the basis of residency and not 'nationality' or ethnicity.

I agree, it seems better that the people living in Scotland, whether they were born here or not, are the ones who decide.
I've got English family members who live in Scotland and are voting, it seems fair to me.

JohnCusacksWife · 02/09/2014 18:37

The Scottish/British thing is interesting. Id always have said i felt both equally but over the course of this (seemingly never ending) debate I'd say my positive feelings re Scottishness have been challenged. I love my city, Glasgow but as far as general Scottishness is concerned I'm feeling quite negative about it. I think the referendum has brought out the worst kind of wha's like us, smug, "nobody's perfect but being scottish is close enough" attitude in a lot of people that really grates with me.

LadyCordeliaFlyte · 02/09/2014 18:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StatisticallyChallenged · 02/09/2014 18:44

I think the referendum has brought out the worst kind of wha's like us, smug, "nobody's perfect but being scottish is close enough" attitude in a lot of people that really grates with me

God yes. I've seen far too many comments like that "our biggest attribute is our people, we have one of the smartest populations in the world, of course it'll be a success" - bugger off, we're no smarter or better than anyone else.

Criseyde · 02/09/2014 18:49

On the subject of 'grabbiness', I feel that the BT "best of both worlds" rhetoric is incredibly grabby!

Free tuition in Scotland - 9K fees for English students: best of both worlds!
Protected healthcare in Scotland - PFI and Privatisation in England
A stable school system in Scotland - Academies and free schools in England
etc etc

I really can't see how anyone can be happy with Scottish MPs being able to vote on issues like tuition fees and PFI which only affect English residents. If that is the "best of both worlds" for Scotland then I'm embarrassed by it. And yet at the same time Scottish voters can't make any realistic impact on WM election outcomes, and so feel inadequately represented. Unsatisfactory for everyone. As someone said upthread, many of the things that I am most proud of about the UK are being destroyed in England. Wanting to protect those UK institutions in Scotland is, in fact, a huge incentive for me to vote yes.

AnnieGetYourTazer14 · 02/09/2014 18:55

"Standard defence forces are much cheaper than Trident, and it is likely we would get some existing MOD personnel/equipment in the negotiations." (ItsAllGoingToBeAlright)

I posted earlier today re the Chapter 6 Defence Policy. So far no responses from any Yes voters. Are you truly aware of the impossibilities, incongruities and unworkable nature of the proposals? Ridding Scotland of Trident and establishing your own Defence structure goes far beyond idealism.
This is not something to be swept under the Utopian carpet - internal and national security issues are of huge importance. Defence is not a vote winner but perhaps our stability and security is taken for granted. I would not want to live in a Scotland without a credible defence force. And I doubt if any of us truly know how much work MI5 does north of the border...

StatisticallyChallenged · 02/09/2014 19:00

I'm a No anyway Annie, but I freely admit defence isn't something I'm hugely knowledgeable and I think it's something which is being largely ignored in the debate beyond "no trident" and "we won't be dragged in to illegal wars" type rhetoric.

Can you explain a little more what is wrong with their proposals?

AnnieGetYourTazer14 · 02/09/2014 19:28

The proposed Defence Policy is naive and overly simplistic. It implies that by taking control of certain sectors, equipment and groups of personnel from the current UK Defence structure, Scotland will have an efficient defence force. The British Military is structured to work in its current format and doesn't remain coherent in small bite size chunks for example a Type 23 Frigate will only operate to its full potential with the correct aircraft on the back of it (usually a Lynx but more recently the Merlin Mk1 or 2) and in the Battle Group that it forms part. The forming of a Mechanized Brigade is extremely complex and involves a multitude of experienced, highly trained personnel and suitable equipment. It's not just the front line but logistics, medical support, communications, engineers etc. There is no plan for this at all and there would be limited value to train such officers and soldiers in the UK (still united with Wales and NI) as our training is for an expeditionary defence force. The plan to staff the forces with personnel from the current UK forces is far-fetched and again over simplistic.
I have just looked for a link to an article that would expand this and up came a link to a BBC report 2 days ago covering the letter written by a former NATO commander reiterating this. Suggest you go with his thoughts more than mine. Certainly the lack of a Fleet Air Arm and a Search & Rescue is concerning alone:

In a letter sent to Sunday newspapers, Sir Richard said: "As an experienced professional soldier, nothing I have seen or heard persuades me that Scotland's safety or security would be enhanced one iota if it became a separate country.

"On the contrary, having reviewed the Scottish government's White Paper, I find the proposals amateurish, unrealistic and lacking any clear strategic purpose.

"There is no mention of any naval aviation (yet Scotland would need a primarily naval force), no mention of air-to-air refuelling capability, no mountain rescue and no search and rescue capability.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29005808

And then there is the subject of homeland security and the role that is played by MI5. So so much is going on behind the scenes to keep us safe. I think we have become complacent and the desire to 'go it alone' has come partly from this security that has only come from having a first class Defence and Security force in the first place.

florascotia · 02/09/2014 19:52

From where I live, in a very remote Scottish place, close to where my ancestors came from, it's all a load of romantic tosh. And I'm (proudly) descended from people who fought for Bonnie Prince Charlie.

I know many, many passionate Scot Nats - perhaps the majority -who have never ventured outside the central belt. They have absolutely no idea of what lives outside that narrow area are like. But those of us who live in remote, sparsely populated rural Scotland know that we simply don't count, in electoral terms. The SNP leaders care for us no more than Westminster politicians do. Sorry, but that's afact of political life.

To take just two examples. In spite of many years of agitatation, our community has no permanent GPs (just pass-in -the-night -and -expensive locums). In the same way, the Scottish National goverment policy is that all out-of-hours-health- care (the majority of the time, because it includes weekends and holidays as well as from 6 pm to 8 am) will be covered by poorly paid (less than £ 1 per hour) volunteers, called 'Emergency Responders'.
I'm not talking through my hat; I've sat through fatuous presentations by the current SNP health minister, who spent all of 2 hours in our remote community. He told us that the unpaid/volunteer emergency responders are going to be the model for most of Scotland... Is that what Scottish people really want and pay their taxes for?

The second example - among many others - is broadband. The Scottish Government have given BT millions and millions in subsidies. But BT will only lay on decent broadband to places where there are enough people. At the moment, our 'main' (though it's only minor) road is being dug up to lay fibre-optic cables. But will they serve the remote villages the road passes through, or villages like ours, about 3 miles away from the 'spine'? Will they hell. The answer is no. I currently spend over £50 per month on satellite broadband, plus over £20 for BT for a landline phone (there is no mobile reception here, or in many other parts of rural Scotland.) I've taken this up with the current SNP leadership and they say its a commercial decision. The Scottish government won't challenge BT, and it's not worth BT's time to make connections to remote areas, and so they won't do it.

I might expect the government in Westminster not to grasp these issues - both of crucial importance to Scottish rural communities. But when Scotland's own first minister and his colleagues also ignore them, as not worthy of their attention, what am I to think??

Come on, Scots Nats, tell me how you'd make this better. I'd really, really like to know. My mind is not closed, and the referendum is less than a fortnight away

Criseyde · 02/09/2014 19:55

I'm interested too, Annie.

In your first post you indicate that "one of the entry requirements to the EU is a significant Defence Force". I wonder if you could point me towards further details here. Specifically as to what the EU defines as a significant defence force? I know that new applicant member states applying in the typical way (ie. who have never been EU members before) have to fulfil (or be seen as working to fulfil) the Copenhagen criteria, but I do not see any specific defence requirements here.

On the subject of the EU, I also wondered what you think of the misperceptions that i) the UK has always and must always build warlike ships within the UK and ii) that choosing to build warlike ships outside the UK means that the contracts must go out to commercial tender - which isn't at all the case as they would still be exempt from the tendering process under Article 346.

I'm also interested in whether you think that it is just the current administration's immediate plans for a Scottish Defence Force which are unrealistic/unfeasible as they stand (and could be significantly improved?), or whether you think that Scotland, as an independent country (with a population and GDP per head quite similar to Denmark's) could never have a viable minimal defence force?

StatisticallyChallenged · 02/09/2014 19:55

Thanks Annie. I can't say I'm surprised - the whole White Paper could be described as amateurish and unrealistic so why would they have got this right.

Course, they'll have a mandate to demand everything they fancy, so that's alright Grin

I think you are right, it's easy to be complacent but it's also very foolish. We might not be "at war" in the way we were in past times but it doesn't mean we don't need a good defence force.

IrnBruTheNoo · 02/09/2014 20:05

I see myself as Scottish, not British and I'll be voting Yes.

prettybird · 02/09/2014 20:08

florascotia - isn't telecoms a reserved matter? So any help the Scottish Government has given (like the Rural Broadband Initiative) has been a bit like the bedroom tax, in areas where the the ScotGov has had to find funds for over and above its remit?

Apologies if I'm wrong, as it's a few years since I actually worked in the industry.

Roseformeplease · 02/09/2014 20:14

We too have no broadband in our holiday cottage village, (we used to live there but couldn't sell) patchy mobile reception and an often unstable electricity supply (mainland Scotland - double track road). Nothing we ask seems to make a difference. GPs are hard to recruit and the NHS model does not seem to allow paying them more or helping with rental housing (there are few, if any long term rentals) by having a GP house or similar. Yet we have trams. Oh, and because a few locals don't like the proprietor of the local pub, there will be huge amounts of public money so they can buy the premises for "the community". Transport is patchy and often not joined up so you can travel by bus and miss the one train or travel by train and miss the one bus. Waiting times are huge for specialist treatment and a colleague paid to go to Germany for cancer treatment - apparently she wasn't sick enough, what with her breast cancer and all, to be treated quickly. Shame for her 2 young children but, hey ho.

Interesting that broadband, NHS and transport are all devolved issues. Heaven forbid we complain, however. Let the current shower of bastards loose on big issues like defence, welfare, taxes and they will cock it up good and proper.

At least so,e of the Westminster politicians have actually been to my neck of the woods. Salmond and Sturgeon have never once visited in all their time in power and show no interest at all in our concerns. They want to strut on the world stage, not actually manage the patch they already have.

TheBogQueen · 02/09/2014 20:24

Anyone watching the STV debate?

StatisticallyChallenged · 02/09/2014 20:26

Oh god are tweedle dum and tweedle dee shouting again? Grin

TheBogQueen · 02/09/2014 20:28

This is nicola sturgeon and Douglas Alexander

It's actually very measured - no shouting. Very polite.

StatisticallyChallenged · 02/09/2014 20:31

Just flicked it on - I hadn't realised there was another on. They do seem to be behaving a little better so far.

As an aside, anyone reckon Nicola's had her colours done and been told to wear red?! I swear every time I see her she's wearing scarlet!

stoppedlurking56 · 02/09/2014 20:32

Hi Weatherall - thanks, hadn't seen your note at end of other thread as was looking at this thread. Will look her up. Difficult for many to comprehend, but no less important.

stoppedlurking56 · 02/09/2014 20:33

Stat - re red. It's labour colour. Seems fairly obvious this close to polling.

TheBogQueen · 02/09/2014 20:33

She's looking pretty sharp. Bet she's got her spanx on.

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