Indyref Part 4

[SantanaLopez]

Evening all :)

Sorry Freudian slip, lack of a positive reason to vote No.

I liked it first time - thought you were converted!

Shipbuilding is an important industry but in terms of how integral it is to the day to day functioning of the country then the difference is pretty stark.

Interesting programme on iPlayer about Nordic countries in the context of the referendum - one thing that stood out though was that Norway let failing industries fail rather than propping them up.

So what about the Yes poster with the granny and the baby - not patronising? I have low expectations of political advertising anyway I have to say.

I think both sides are voting because they think it is the best option for themselves and for future generations.

If ItsAll announced she was a No I think I would faint.

Numanoid I am Northern English so don't have any kind of vote.
If I can express an opinion I would like to say that I think BT's campaign has been terrible, and getting worse! Have they never heard of Focus Groups? I think this latest campaign is "wrapping yourself in the flag" which is I think a knee jerk reaction to the percieved "Flag wrapping" of the Snats.

Having said that, by the very nature of the argument it's harder for BT.
SNATS are advocating change from the status quo - so they can promise ANYTHING, or even change for changes sake (which will appeal to some people for sure), whereas BT are campaigning for the status quo - which by definition IS Negative (i.e. No change - things are fine as they are).
The SNATS (like any opposition political party really) have licence to promise pretty much anything. So BT automatically falls into the trap of "No, you can't do that, because.." and so the style of debate is set.
So BT is by its very nature, "negative". Which nicely plays in to Alex Salmonds hands.
I think they would have been better consciously being more positive about the benefits of the union. Also they don't seem to have any great Public speakers - Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling are not great orators. I'll give Alec his due - he's a good politician.

I suppose people have to try and cut through all that and concentrate on the substance of the argument.

So what about the Yes poster with the granny and the baby - not patronising? I have low expectations of political advertising anyway I have to say.

I completely agree, and I feel most people will not be swayed by adverts with such a lack of substance. I guess the problem is both sides are trying to advertise an idea, as there are no certainties.

I guess BT could have some sort of WW1/2 advert all about how the two countries fought together, shared history etc?

Any use LadyCordelia ?

www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2009/04/03/politics-what-is-the-shetland-charitable-trust

one thing that stood out though was that Norway let failing industries fail rather than propping them up.

I'm not sure it's an approach I'd disagree with in general - it's purely that banks are a bit of a special case IYSWIM. That's a problem in itself and a much wider issue.

But should we prop up failing industries in the long terms...probably not, in most cases.

Since 1707, together we have:

seen off Napoleon, the Kaiser and Hitler
built and dismantled an Empire (a great achievement, if morally iffy)
built the 6th largest economy in the world
built a democracy
built legal systems based on sound principles
built a welfare state

We're a relatively small island off the Northern shores of Europe. We've done well. Far from perfect but better than many other countries with more natural resources going for them.

But that's looking backwards.

A question: - how many YES'rs identify themselves as Scottish above all, and British more or less by default, and how many NO'ers identify as British primarily, and Scots second?

I wonder if they are exclusive or interchangeable viewpoints (on average of course).

So what about the Yes poster with the granny and the baby - not patronising? I have low expectations of political advertising anyway I have to say.

I think both sides are voting because they think it is the best option for themselves and for future generations.

I agree, I don't think any campaign should insinuate a vote either way means you do/don't love your country/family and so on.

davrostheholy A few people I know, or through friends, have switched to Yes/undecided because of the Better Together campaign. I have Yes Scotland badges and posters, but I don't base my opinion on them. I do read their press releases etc. but if they made a gaffe it wouldn't put me off voting Yes.
I know an undecided voter who is reading articles and information from as many independent sources as possible, I think that's the best thing to do.

I suppose people have to try and cut through all that and concentrate on the substance of the argument.

That's true, it should be about looking behind the campaigns and doing your own research.

Here's another source of info on the Shetland situation to go along with ItsAll's, LadyCordelia

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27138927

A question: - how many YES'rs identify themselves as Scottish above all, and British more or less by default, and how many NO'ers identify as British primarily, and Scots second?

I identify as Scottish, never have felt British. I only use it when filling in forms which require a nationality, and British is the only applicable option. It's nothing against GB, and I know I technically am British, I just feel more Scottish. :)

I'm both Scottish and British. I probably used to be more Scottish when I was younger but for the last few years I've been working in teams which are based in different parts of the UK and therefore travelling to them more etc which I think changed my view a bit as those people didn't feel "foreign" to me.

I would identify as British. Brought in a city (which happens to be in England!) with Scottish and English parentage and having lived my adult life in Scotland.

I was going to spoil my ballot as I don't plan to live in Scotland forever and so I don't feel it's my choice, however the ramifications for rUK are worrying and I am thinking of voting no.

Should read "brought up in"

AFewFallenLeaves I think you have every right to vote - I'm not just saying that because you are veering towards No but because you live here, have lived here for a long time, have given it thought and even if you do move away it may continue to influence you. Don't regret not having your say.

Numanoid
"A few people I know, or through friends, have switched to Yes/undecided because of the Better Together campaign."
Now thats what worries me the most. People deciding on an issue that will have massive ramifications on a worldwide scale (and I am NOT exagerrating there!) and potentially change the future direction(s) of one (two) of the most influential and important countries ever known, because "that bloody advert got up my nose" ;-)

AFewFallenLeaves - you have the right to vote, you should use it.

"A question: - how many YES'rs identify themselves as Scottish above all, and British more or less by default, and how many NO'ers identify as British primarily, and Scots second?

I wonder if they are exclusive or interchangeable viewpoints (on average of course)."

I'm a YES'er, and I identify as neither Scottish, nor British, but Irish, because I am.

Good point Findo!

I also know a couple of fervent SNP supporters who are English.

I don't even particularly identify as English tbh and if Scotland leaves UK, I will have lost my country! (Not that I think this is in any way about me before I'm given that MN label of "narcissistic"!)

Me too! I'm not an SNP voter myself though - of all the parties, probably the greens are the least awful option for me at the moment.