To report friend to FB for photo of her blacked up?

[Greyhound]

I'm really shocked - cousin of mine has pic of herself on Facebook blacked up. She is white. The picture is of her at a fancy dress party - she has covered her face in dark brown stage make up and is wearing an "Afro" wig and Rastafarian style striped hat.

Her husband is also blacked up.

Chopinbabe, really?

You are being deliberately disingenuous I think.

Totally agree with Flipflops and Bambambini too - the "you are all closet racists" cry went out very early on in the thread, thereby ensuring that people felt unfairly attacked.

I was one of those who saw nothing wrong with blacking/whiting for fancy dress until a very reasoned explanation on a mn thread last year which gave me pause for thought and changed my view. I was never a screaming racist, but according to some posters on this thread I clearly was - but in denial.

The original premise of this thread was somewhat disingenuous too imo - all very faux wide-eyed and "should I report?" - then as the thread went on, it became clear that the OP was very clued up on the whole subject and has clearly discussed it at length before.
It appears to me as a thread started purely to flush out people who genuinely have never thought of the subject before as it does not figure in their lives, and call them out as 'horrible racists'.

Pretty shitty thread imo.

I read some of the Rotherham thread. I think that quite a few posters from that area actually did show why the ethnicity and cultural attitudes towards women and girls (especially those from outwith that culture) was an issue.

"I clicked on a random thread to see what it was all about. I've got no particular interest in black face (other than not having lived in a cave for the last 30 years so know it is really problematic) and have never done it."

See - all those folk that this never was an issue for , a talking point, just never even raised it head etc - have lived in caves and are obviously just ignorant. What on earth are they discussing at their dinner parties then?

Scarlett Agreed re the purpose of the thread. I was quite clear blacking up was wrong. The example of the neighbours Caribbean party with grass skirts and blacked faces - clearly wrong. I was less sure in the example someone gave re dressing as Jimi Hendrix but on reflection ( (from considered posts from MrsTerryPratchett and a couple of others but not the OP)yes on the whole best avoided.

I am definitely one of the people for whom this simply does not feature in my life. I'd never dress up in that way and have never seen anyone black up.

I agree entirely about the OP.Her later posts had a degree of articulacy about the subject which completely belied the "oh dear me , whatever shall I do?" opening line.

Why so, Scarlett?

A group of men groomed and systematically abused, raped and threatened a group of young women.

Do we really need to know the ethnic background of all involved and, if so, why?

Chopinbabe, read the rotheram thread, read the case reviews, read the reports. To really, truly believe that the race and culture of the victims and perpetrators was not a factor indicates wilful ignorance imo.

You do not need me to re-iterate the findings, they have been reported by far more articulate and qualified people than I.

I think the thing about blackface, or other parodies of different races or cultures is that is inherently othering - it defines whoever you are dressing up as as outside the norm.

Sometimes I would say that this is ok, usually where the power balance between parties is roughly the same, for example, brits dressing up as french people etc, but at other times, where the power balance is not or has not been equal, it is very problematic, for example, blackface, drag, etc.

We very rarely see people dressing up as a white middle class man do we? Why? Because these are default characteristics in our society, particularly his whiteness and maleness.

Chopin if as seems to be the case here the abusers were largely one group and the victims another , then yes. It is pertinent to at least consider all factors, including race ,and which if any ,makes the victims more vulnerable. Possibly there are other factors such as class, income at work but to discount it completely is short sighted. If this had been largely white men targeting a non- white group or a white but new immigrant group would you still say it's not even to be considered?

Some one posted the link to this Guardian article to show the abuse was not limited to white girls. I'm not sure it is pertinent since the abuse described here did not involve the targeting and grooming of girls , plying with gifts etc but focused more on the closing of ranks within families and communities to refuse to acknowledge it even happens.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/29/-sp-untold-story-culture-of-shame-ruzwana-bashir

"Not being particularly scathing (though I guess it has been interpreted that way) more... seriously? Seriously? It's never come up that comedic dressing up as a stereotyped 'black person' costume might be seen as racist? Okey dokey then…"

Yes seriously, I can imagine whole swathes of the population who have never thought about it or discussed it. And I'd imagine most younger people 20's and younger have no clue what the Black and White Minstrel show was or anything about the history of blacking up. In do know who a few people who have dressed up and darkened their skin for fancy dress parties ( I wasn't there) - maybe it would be good for them to read this thread as knowing the people I know they meant absolutely no harm or offence. But it probably has just not been something that has been brought up or discussed in terms of oppressive and offensive.

Buffy, my understanding of the significance of culture/ethnicity in the rotheram case is that the victims were seen as 'fair game' due to their being viewed as lesser to the perpetrators solely due to their ethnicity (the victims).

The group of abusers were operating with the view that their culture was superior ("their" women have more pride/self respect/morals than loose white women), culture, religion and ethnicity was very clearly a dominant factor in victim selection and who the abusers were.

With Jimmy saville et al, it was predominantly white, privileged men who felt untouchable and above the law - so their assumed privileged position linked them. (That's my view anyway).

Well, if Buffy abhors racism then maybe Buffy can go and make her voice heard on the Rotheram threads where feminists and other racial-crime deniers are deafening in their silence.

seriously? Seriously? It's never come up that comedic dressing up as a stereotyped 'black person' costume might be seen as racist? Okey dokey then…

No Buffy beyond occasionally as part of a general "how on earth were The Black and White Minstrels , Miss World shows, Love Thy Neighbour, Benny Hill and other terrible shows ever considered acceptable" conversation, not in particular.

Every now and then one sees reports of idiot white men, usually members of rugby clubs, doing something idiotic like the grass skirts and black faces thing to which my response will be "idiots"

I've never considered blacking up as fancy dress and never been at a party where any one has. That really hasn't come up.

Chopin, I can't believe you are that stupid. Harris, Savile et al did not deliberately choose their rape victims because of a hatred for their race. The Rotheram abusers (and all other Pakistani grooming gangs) did. Can you understand any of that? Can you understand why these gangs never target girls from their own cultures? There are vulnerable young women in every single community, not just the white lower classes, but these Pakistani gangs of rapists deliberately target poor, white, vulnerable girls from the underclass.

'Dirty kuffar', is what these girls were called as they were gang raped, burned with cigarettes and drugged. Now please go away and rethink your position, because it is insulting to these victims that you continue to be deliberately obtuse. And that goes for anyone on these boards who chooses to ignore - for reasons of woolly-minded hand-wringing liberalism - the truth before our eyes.

Fwiw I think it's the stereotyping that's the issue rather that the actual dressing up.

Buffy, I agree that victim choosing and abusers are fundamentally all about power and perceived superiority - I was just rather disbelieving of Chopin's faux wide-eyed disbelief of a cultural link in the rotheram case in particular.

Wrt blacking up - clearly most reasonable people would immediately agree that blacking up to portray a generic "black person" is abhorrent, but they do not see why darkening skin tone to portray a particular fancy dress character (e.g. Mr T) is offensive.
Rather than immediately dismissing them as ignorant cave dwellers, I find it more helpful to point out that the skin colour is irrelevant - the shit loads of gold jewellery and mohawk hairstyle are the character.
Would a black woman be shit as Marilyn Monroe without paling her complexion? No.

This is the reasoned example that was given to me when I expressed the same confusion re offense and it made me realise my ignorance on the subject. I would now make the same point to others who don't 'get' it. What I don't do is start calling them out as defensive racists who are brimming with unashamed white privilege - I find that to be akin to using a juggernaut to crack a nut tbh.

"Yeah, I guess I can imagine young, relatively privileged white people who are largely unconscious of their privilege. "

I honestly don't know if you meant that to sound like the spat out insult that I read it as. No, I'd say they are just people getting on with their lives. Most of the white people I know aren't particularly privileged. Almost sounds that you don't like white people and they should walk around constantly hanging their head in shame at their privilege.

Bambini, I tried to insist that not all white people have privilege but I was told to fuck off and come back when I'd grown a hippocampus (or something similar). It's so tiresome dealing with these people who feel the need to throw patriarchy and privilege into every conversation.