To wonder if actually there IS a paedophile round every corner?

[CundtBake]

I know it's fashion on here to not really worry about this kind of thing, and pretty much act like it doesn't exist, but given the sheer volume of stuff in the press at the moment, AIBU to wonder if we should all be more worried in general?

Two people in my family (now dead) were heavily suspected paedophiles. I was abused as a child (not by them) and a LOT of people I know also suffered abuse as a child. And that's just the ones who have shared with me.

AIBU to think it is a lot more common than we might like to think?

fatlazymummy I agree with you. A while back I took part in some 'safer recruiting' training for school governors. One of the statistics quoted was that in primary schools abusers are more likely to be female than male. I guess this is simply because there are far more women in primary schools than men.

The big thing about this training was challenging perceptions of some people being automatically 'safe'.

The training was all about not trusting instinct but checking everything every time, picking up the phone and checking references. Checking out gaps in employment history. Questioning why a seemingly good teacher moves on so frequently.

This issue is such a difficult one to broach with children.

I was abused as a child and when I had DS, I was paranoid that I may go onto abuse him. That 'myth' has been put to bed now. I was uncomfortable kissing him on the lips, I would never touch his penis unless it was with a wipe and I used to cringe when he was kissed by other people. Counselling helped me get over all this, but I am still a bit paranoid about 'other' people.

We have had lots of conversations about stranger danger, how parts of his body are private and the reasons why I won't allow him to use any websites that have a 'chat or message' facility. He is 9 and all these conversations have been age appropriate. We used to play a game called 'good and bad secrets', which he really liked. You had to guess if something was a bad or good secret. For example 'It is Nanna's birthday next week and Grandad has asked you to keep the present he bought her a secret'. Is this a good or bad secret? 'A friends parent has asked if he can touch your bottom, but you mustn't tell anyone' Is this a good or bad secret?

I am overly cautious about everyone. He only gets to have sleep-overs at his Dads and occasionally at Nanna and Grandads. One of my neighbours, who I am really good friends with, have offered to have him over if I have to go away with work. I have very politely refused their offer. Her husband is a nice bloke, but DS isn't always comfortable with him. He has a habit of tickling DS, but won't stop when asked. I have had to step in and very firmly to tell him to respect DS when he says stop.

I don't make DS kiss or cuddle anyone he doesn't want to - although I do encourage him to shake hands instead. I would not have a partner while DS is still so young - I wouldn't risk it.

Unfortunately, a couple of weeks ago, he over-heard me talking (very generally) about my abuse. I was mortified (didn't realise he could hear us). He got very upset and we have had lots of conversations over the last few weeks. He said that he wasn't upset or scared that it could happen to him - he was upset that it happened to me.

For me, the key is communication. My DS knows that he can tell me anything and I will always listen. I never tell him he is being silly if he is concerned about anything - I listen and acknowledge his thoughts and feelings. You can never completely protect your child, but you just have to hope and pray that you have done enough.

"My mum always suspected my grandad (dad's dad) was a paedophile. She was vigilant in making sure nothing ever happened to me or my siblings. I don't feel that I missed out on a relationship with my grandad, I'm grateful to my mum for protecting me."

My SIL wisely insisted that her DC never be alone with my father. I agreed, along with her sitter and a few friends, to keep a covert eye on him. It worked well. He once asked me "Are you monitoring me with the children?" I said yes. He just nodded and carried on reading the story. I have a photo of that moment - it's a lovely, classic granddad picture.

Now I think this isn't enough. We shouldn't be protecting individual children at individual moments, we should be SHOUTING about every flippin' known or reasonably suspected abuser. Mandatory reporting can't come in quick enough for me.

Here's another plug for the big thread. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2138791-Establishment-Paedophiled-Part-2-Warning-potential-triggers?

Heh, Armani, I've just wondered if I'm your aunt! Sadly, though, this is all too common so no outing has taken place.

Do any of you on this thread have kids who do scouts or similar activities?

My take on having kids in scouts, is that the benefits outweigh the (carefully-considered and mitigated) risks. So i think it makes some sense to get involved as a parent helper or scout leader, and to have already educated your child very carefully about boundaries, underwear rules, etc., and be sure the child has confidence in dealing with others (both other kids and adults), before he or she is allowed to go away to camps. That aside, my image of scouts is that it's quite useful in teaching kids appropriate social skills and diluting family-based weirdnesses. I could be totally wrong of course - I have relatively little experience of anyone other than university-age Rovers and Queen's scouts, who are obviously self-selecting for thinking these organizations are a good thing, because when I meet them they're on university/ research-level field trips to remote places.

However, my mother is completely convinced that scouts is essentially staffed only by paedophiles, and that it's the last place on earth my niece and nephews should be going as an after-school activity.

(This is mixed up with the point that she also doesn't think that scouts teaches anyone anything useful, because she just doesn't understand the value of shared experiences and general social development. She also has no concept of appropriate boundary-setting - thinking that one is either completely compliant, passive (and possibly also resentful but not doing anything about it), or one is rude, demanding and aggressive and nasty, and there's nothing in between. To me, these are larger problems than allowing your kid to come into contact regularly with other people in a setting where boundaries can be important, e.g. weekly scout meetings and camps)

Am I naive, or is my mother being paranoid?

Kirite I think you have raised an interesting point. Prior to the recent scandals, you would have been shot down in flames on mumsnet for even suggesting that for scouts/brownies etc it makes sense to be cautious.

I agree that they get lots out of it and in this day and age it's wonderful that an organisation exists that puts an emphasis on outdoor and adventure activities. DS is just moving up from Beavers and I have to say I was glad that he wasn't keen to go on the overnight camps - primarily because I saw the Beaver leader in action at a panto - no ticking off of names for 6 year olds, little control for crossing the road, DS didn't get to go to the loo in the break (which may have been his own fault) so it was more around concern over his ability to manage the troop, rather than any other worries.

However DH is quite vocal in his thoughts and always a bit suspicious of those giving up their time for this. I believe 95% of the time he is wrong and am very grateful for those who give up their time often for little thanks, but we're both relieved that DS is moving up to cubs where we know the leaders. We always volunteer to help when we can as a) it's the right thing to do and b) it allays any concerns about what's going on.

Put frankly - and horribly, and selfishly - I want any adult involved with my DC to know that I am a parent who is there and takes notice, so on the tiniest percentage chance that they were likely to do something untoward, they are less likely to pick my DC. I know that sounds as appalling as it is, ideally I'd prevent anything happening to any DC, but if I have to make a choice I will protect my own DC first.

JiminyCricket you make a very good point there about grooming. In a context of unbalanced power/ age gap, yes, this is something to watch. In most of the contexts described in this thread, the power dynamic is unbalanced enough that it is a clear-cut description of an inappropriate relationship.

However in boundary cases where a teenager is old/young for their years or an adult is young for their years or vulnerable, it is often genuinely really hard to understand where a very good friendship ends and grooming starts. This absolutely isn't an apologia for grooming, it's just saying it's an area that is sometimes quite hard to understand.

My first boyfriend was - depending how you looked at it - a vulnerable man in his late 20s who fell in love with someone he got on with and shared interests with, who just happened to be 15-18 - or a groomer who abused a very naive teenager. I loved him, and I didn't ever see it as grooming and abuse, until all the stuff in the news recently. I still don't really think it was entirely bad. However, I do now understand the absolute distaste of the adults who knew about the relationship, and looking back I think it was pretty inappropriate and that he should have known better, and that it would have been better if I'd also had any level of education in relationships that would have helped me recognise that it was inappropriate. I didn't. Generally, the good of that relationship outweighed the fallout, but I was very lucky.

kiritekanawa back in the past (thinking 70s & 80s) I suspect that there were a lot more problems in organisations like scout groups, boys clubs etc. I think it is still not perfect (and never will be) I do think that youth organisations have got an awful lot better at their recruitment.

Over the years more and more loopholes have been closed. When I was growing up in the 70s and 80s there was no CRB checking. Individuals could and did set up private youth groups (the leader of one such in my area was subsequently jailed).

All three of my DCs did/do belong to youth organisations (youth orchestra, cadets etc). We talk constantly about what they are doing and who with. IMO the usual rules apply, listen out for incidents of 'special' treatment where they are separated from the herd. Keep listening and recognise where they arent comfortable but cant quite verbalise the problem.

It is no different from school.

I don't believe there is a pedophile on every corner
,although I am sure there are a few in every community - a smaller number of which prey on children where they live ( whilst the others prey on them on line). I do believe that there is a sexual predator on every corner though - men that like to take what they want and are especially attracted to vulnerable girls/ women. I guess if you are a 13 yesr old girl the difference is academic.

rookiemater - that sounds pragmatic. I think any parent would probably think the same way, though they might not all put it that way.

It makes me really, really sad that some people assume that the only reason an unconnected adult would become a scout leader is to abuse children. Think of the number of career teachers who don't have children. Are all of them abusers? Or do some of them actually really enjoy interacting with children and trying to guide them toward being functional adults? And might some of them be unable to have children?

GnomedePlume - yes, i agree that things have tightened up a lot now. And your approach sounds sensibble.

BarbarianMum - I agree there.

I note in passing that while my first relationship was ambiguous and had many good aspects; I have had a subsequent one that was just plain grooming and abuse with a totally unbalanced power dynamic. I was naive, had no sense of self, and felt absolutely empowered by being desirable to someone who was an utter sleazebag, and a well-known predator upon people 20 years his junior over whom he held considerable power. It was all totally legal and consenting, but utterly, absolutely inappropriate and abusive.

We know so much more about abuse and abusers than even 20 years ago but most people still prefer to pretend it couldn't happen to their family.

And i think a lot of parents are incredibly slack about checking out who is with their children. Sending them for playdates and sleepovers with parents they have never met, or without checking out who else will be there. How utterly irresponsible. In a vast perentage of cases the abuser is in the extended family, a neighbour, coach, friend of the family or an otherwise familiar face.

Actually I think that there are paedophiles just round the corner. The problem is that they are round the corner in Granny's house or a friend's house. It isnt stranger danger it is familiar danger.

These days we are far less reverential towards our so called betters. Community leaders, pop stars, television stars are all under constant scrutiny.

IMO the problem is with the people close to us.

Agreed tread and some people are still very naive in situations where they shouldn't be.

My friends DD is heavily into gymnastics - my friend asked me to like the feeds so I could see her DD - I now get fairly regular feeds of children doing their routines. Such a group should surely be closed and only those with DCs in the team allowed to join. My friend was quite surprised when I mentioned it to her.

I got a scholarship to a very "good" very expensive all girls school as a child. The sort of school that always gets 100% a-c GCSE passes and sends girls to Oxbridge type institutions as a matter of course.

There was a dodgy 35 year old English teacher who had "relationships" with various girls, including one in my year. He had been involved in some sort of punk band in the 70s and this gave him some sort of rebellious appeal I think. Girls of 15 or 16 were queuing up to "go out" with him. One even went on holiday with him. It was the source of much gossip, and I know that teachers were aware of it. But nobody did anything.

I am 35 myself now and see it for what it was - paedophilia. Why did nobody stop it? It all seemed so normal back then, and I'm only talking about the late 90s.

Unfortunately tread it's not possible to tell who is a pedophile just by looking at them. So meeting the parents of your children's friends isn't actually going to keep them safe. So you either never allow them round tofriends houses or you arm them to protect themselves as best you can and take a chance.

The mum of every child who has come to my house knows me from the
school playground. Very few have ever met dh, let alone my dsd or brother

Sorry should read

...let alone my dad or brother or BiL or neighbours husband or any other of the men who might potentially pop round.

I think one thing that may have changed since 20 - 30 years ago is how much objectification is regarded as appropriate or acceptable. It's relevant here because it introduces a "useful" separation between oneself and the other person who is seen as a construct more than a complex human being.

People of my parents' generation seem to see it as their right to comment on personal aspects of others' lives - "I don't like her outfit" "She's a bit of all right" "Ugly old bag" "I'd date that" - are all things i've heard from my parents' supposedly highly-educated friends who are in positions of power (not that I think education and emotional maturity are the same thing at all, but they see themselves as being responsible, thoughtful, nuanced members of society, they hold power over others, and yet they say that kind of stuff).

They were all absolutely horrified at me when I (in icy fury) asked the 70 year old man who'd said "I'd date that" about a girl who was clearly a teenager walking down the street in a bikini (1) whether anyone had asked his opinion and (2) whether he usually called other people "that". I got all the usual "don't know what your problem is, I was paying her a compliment, noone asked YOUR opinion, you have no sense of humour, time of the month is it" kind of crap from them. They genuinely didn't seem to understand how inappropriate that remark was. To them it was just the kind of thing that you said to mark your appreciation, and it had absolutely no connection whatsoever to inappropriate power dynamics, and also none to the need for feminism.

I think when your relationships with others are that generally thoughtless, it's much easier to miss signs that people are behaving inappropriately. Not everyone is that thoughtless, obviously, but there is a generational difference in how acceptable that is, I think (I hope).

In my experience, there is.

Recently there has been a FB hate campaign about a convicted paedophile who has been spotted in our town.
I refused to join in or support it in any way.

Mainly because: a) there has been a paedophile hostel/ex-offenders group in the town for a long time.
B) focussing on one individual gives a false sense of security about others.

A friend of mine did some work with the ex-offenders and said that they will "lie lie and lie some more in order to get access to children."

It does get harder when they get older, as in secondary school you do not know all their friends. I do try to be visible when dropping off for sleepovers. Have always kept lines of communication open. Make sure they know they can call me any time day of night. And finally they have good communication with each other - I do believe if anything happened to one, if they didn't tell me they would tell a sibling - who would let me know. Oh and they have pretty good self esteem, and if anything tend to be too assertive.

Username12345 yes, people do confuse abuse with paedophilia, but that may be because it's difficult to draw a line between the two - the reason I've been discussing examples of abuse on a thread about paedophilia is that many of the same factors come into play.

These factors include people not having the sense of personal empowerment to say no or speak up; people not understanding appropriate boundaries; people not having the understanding that some behaviours are inappropriate; and people being in such an unbalanced power dynamic that all they can see is the damage that will be done by the power aspect if they say no, etc.

Educating and protecting children about sense of self, boundaries, appropriate behaviour, power dynamics etc - makes the kids less vulnerable, but also may help with producing adults who aren't as likely to transgress these boundaries.

My DM was abused by family members but she still doesn't see the dangers and she downplays Jimmy Saville etc saying the girls pushed themselves onto him. This viewpoint is definitely a generation thing for women brought up in the 1950s.

My own experience is a school friend in the 1980s who told me she was abused by her uncle but her parents did not believe her and she ran away from home ending up in Shelter.

I do worry more now about my dcs. My Ds went to a birthday party a few years ago and the entertainer took some of the boys separately into a little room at the back of the hall on their own at the end of the party. I asked my ds what he did in the room and he told me they chose the names of children who would get prizes. But afterwards I did wonder why I let him go in the room. I guess I would have felt a bit stupid and paranoid being the only parent to not let their child be chosen for this. And the entertainer was popular and we'll know. I'm sure and hope that it was innocent,but I guess this is how abuse happens in full sight of people.

Personally, I do think its a good idea to meet any adults your children may be alone with (at a party/sleepover etc). Not because you'd necessarily be able to pick up anything untoward, or be able to spot a paedophile. But because in my experience, paedophiles or abusive adults prefer to target children who are relatively unprotected, or with disinterested/unobservant adults.

Making yourself present and showing an interest in your child's life and contacts can only help. Obviously, its not 100% protection against anything happening, but risk reduction is the name of the game.

Frankie5 - the point about your mother plays into the objectification I mentioned above, but also the empowerment I mentioned further above.

Give the teenage girls a better option for attention and empowerment than attention from a celebrity and they'll see that attention from Jimmy Savile isn't exciting or desirable. Even if they apparently chose to go to places where they could "throw themselves at" Jimmy Savile or John Peel or the Beatles or whoever - they were products of a restrictive societal norm where the accepted way for teenage girls to get attention was as sexual objects in the male gaze, and where girls were encouraged to have a sense of self that was totally depermined by others' opinions of them (and those opinions mostly related to appearance and behaviour). So you have "empowerment" (i.e. getting attention) being completely enmeshed with a totally unbalanced power dynamic where someone else gets to bestow judgements of quality on these girls, based on whatever criterion the someone-else likes - whether that's academic performance, appearance, or compliance with abuse

going on what sabrinna said there are women who abuse but they a lot of the time dont get put on sex offenders resgeters etc get leintant sentances etc but women can and do abuse children in both physical and sexaul ways and you would be stupid to assume that 99% of abuses are men when its more likely to ne 70% - 80% as its in the same legaue with domestic violence people dont belive mne suffer from absuvie females and so arent supported when go to family members / police and such the figures a messed up and by contining with the dangerous vue that women dont abuse etc is both wrong and hypocitaly (my DN was abused by his mother but no one belived him saying it ether never happened or was it in fact his father etc)

There was also a case were a teaching assiant around my way was caught having sex with several 9 year old boys and she had the ardastiaty to say the 9 year old forced her to have sex them and she only got a 2 year suspended stance and was not put on the sex offenders resgester as the judge said because they are boys they werent greatly affected by it as if it were 9 year old girls with a male perpotar so until the brithish / world justice services catch up that WOMEN can and are capable of hinous acts and to throw out the outdated view that women can only ever be victems we will sadly have unrecongised crimes as men (or boys ) still feel they cannot report crimes were the prepotrator is female as they will be seen as weak or simply laughed out of the police station.

Sorry for the rant am sick to death of stupid bloody people saying men are 99% of the offenders etc when that is not the case its only the conviction rate is such and using the example of rapiest. 100% of rapetist are men (as women that force sex are classed as sexaul assults and not rape and considered minor in conparisson to male forced sex aka rape (i cannot use the term rape for women on man because of the bloody outdated termonolgy that says only penis being inserted means rapes) I am not slighting rape victims I am only pointing out the hypoicasy of our legal system.