to start yet another Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 3 folks.

We should arrange an Indyref meet up at this stage.

Weatherall - I've heard that argument but I am not convinced. Quick look at the Scottish gov website gives figures that show that 60% of all women of working age in Scotland with children already work (full or part time). Even with full childcare not all women will want to work so I don't see how the increase in employment - assuming everyone who wants a job can find one - will cover the costs.

For me the decision is about democracy and self-determination but I know you No voters like statistics and can't understand how Scotland could manage economically on its own, so I've found some statistics for you...

Scotland represents just 8.3% of the UK population.... Remember that number - 8.3%..
We have the following share of UK resources..

• 32% Land area
• 61% Sea area
• 90% Surface fresh water
• 65% North Sea natural gas production
• 96.5% North Sea crude oil production
• 47% Open cast coal production
• 81% Coal reserves at sites not yet in production
• 62% Timber production (green tonnes)
• 46% Total forest area (hectares)
• 92% Hydro electric production
• 40% Wind, wave, solar production
• 60% Fish Landings (total by Scottish vessels)
• 55% Fish Landings (total from Scottish waters)
• 30% Beef herd (breeding stock)
• 20% Sheep herd (breeding flock)
• 9% Dairy herd
• 10% Pig herd
• 15% Cereal holdings (hectares)
• 20% potato holdings (hectares) There are very few countries in the WORLD that rival Scotland's resources per head and in such rich diversity.

And that's before you start thinking about our greatest resource - the people who live and work here.

We absolutely, unequivocally, can be an successful independent country.

Why do people assume that women need to become employees instead of becoming self employed? Tad sexist isn't it?

I'd like to see a culture which promotes female entrepreneurship as a typical employment pattern.

Having school hours childcare would mean that wrap around care for those who want it would be very much more affordable than the £40pd it costs for a nursery.

Also this policy would have a knock on effect on how employers view female employers. As someone who was made redundant in maternity leave this is a very pertinent issue for me. 30000 women a year in the UK lose their jobs due to pregnancy discrimination. This costs the economy £££. If female employment patterns changed then this should improve employers' attitudes and prevent those losses.

Funny, we had that exact same list pasted on a previous thread and it wasn't convincing then either. But thanks for the thoroughly patronising post nonetheless. I especially like all us no voters being assumed to be a homogeneous mass.

Anyone seen the DMs front page for tomorrow today?
pbs.twimg.com/media/BwJ8wDNIQAEnMLd.jpg

You're the one who started talking about mothers - rather than parents. Tad sexist isn't it?

Of course parents can become self employed. But there still has to be some sort of role or gap in the market for them to occupy. And self employment, with the accompanying instability, is not suitable or desirable for many people. It's held up as a wondrous solution but it's a hard choice and one which many are not suited to.

Where is this wrap around going to come from? Most areas have a desperate shortage of wraparound care already.

The Mail

Funny, we had that exact same list pasted on a previous thread and it wasn't convincing then either.

What's not convincing? Scotland is very fortunate in having a tiny population and absolutely masses of natural assets.

Any independent country could - eventually - be successful, even without those resources. But I really don't think the yes campaign have made the case as to how Scotland would do it at this moment. The currency being the biggest issue - but there is still confusion about Scotland's position in the EU, what will happen to a lot of the financial services industry, pensions etc etc.

But for me its actually more about national identity. I consider myself British. I also don't want to have to be crossing a border to visit much of my family. I understand lots of Scots feel differently - but the yes campaign don't have a a monopoly on the more emotive issues in this vote.

The Mail grin

I know - you can always rely on them for a subtle and understated headline. Definitely something happening in the polls though...

Yes, we do. I don't dispute that. But it's a cherry picked list of natural assets which doesn't reflect how our current economy is set up, how much those assets are able to contribute, what we currently generate income from, where people are employed etc. Natural assets does not automatically convert to wealth.

Can I jump in and ask a question? How will the result be announced? I mean, I imagine it's not like an election night with all the constituencies declaring one after the other, there's on,y going to be one result. So will it take a few days? Or does each area count their ballots then phone it in to a central point?

Natural assets does not automatically convert to wealth.
No. But they are indisputably a useful thing to have, and that list of course only includes natural assets.

Not sure Lonny I have a hankering for the BBCs old fashioned Swing-o-metre but it may take a few days for the count to be completed and verified.

How is being an employee sexist? Are not more men employees than entrepreneurs?

And following on from the fuss over the (dull) advert that was slammed by the Yes campaign -what is this obsession with calling "sexism" by Yes campaigners? OK I may have found Scotland to be a bit lagging the rest of Northern Europe but it's not a problem that I associate with rule from Westminster.

Oh well, sorry if you've seen it before and no patronising intended. (Even if this was the thread yesterday where there were insinuations that some Yes supporters aren't even qualified to have an opinion...)

Incidentally, I don't assume that all No voters are a homogenous mass. But alot of the No opinions on this thread seem to revolve around money and economics rather than more abstract concepts of democracy and aspirations for social justice so I just thought the stats above might help...

I am planning an all nighter accompanied by a large bottle of one of Scotland's finest exports..

Or we could have a Mumsnet party/riot while the votes roll in?

Mind you - doubt it will beat my celebrating the 1997 Labour win when I got v.pissed and indulged in some very poor behaviour...

sconequeen - I have many aspirations for social justice - as do a lot of people in rUk - I am just not convinced by the SNP's arguments that independence will deliver them.

sconequeen people across the UK aspire to social justice.

Lonny, each local authority area will have a Counting Officer, who will send results to Edinburgh, where the Chief Counting Officer will validate and announce the results. So yes, there will be results through the night, but it'll be "East Ayrshire returned x votes for Yes, y votes for No", not, "East Ayrshire voted majority x/y" iyswim.

It is anticipated that the final result won't be known till about breakfast time on the 19th, though (depending on weather etc) it might be as late as some time on the 20th.

Personally, I don't struggle with the concept of democracy - I just don't agree that the current situation is undemocratic because I see myself as an equal voter in the UK, not an underrepresented Scottish voter.

Social Justice - so far nobody has been able to actually demonstrate why or how an independent Scotland would be any more socially just. We've had references to the bedroom tax but frankly that's equally hated in rUK. I haven't seen or read anything that makes me believe that an independent Scotland would be any better.

Yes, lots of the No opinions feature economics and money. Because without solid economic foundations, the rest is all just pie in the sky.

weatenotinkansas
According to this only 30% of women with DCs work full time. Since it is almost impossible to be financially independent from the state or a partner on a part time income then this is a very important feminist issue.

Also this stat covers all ages of DCs. You would expect mums of older DCs to be working. What this policy would change is ending the break in employment women often have, often unwillingly, and mostly never recover from financially.

There are some interesting stats on women and childcare here although it is from a Tory think tank.

As long as only 57% of mums of 0-2 work whilst more than 90% of fathers of the same age group work this inequality will have reverberations across society.

Yeah, democracy and social justice were discussed previously, perhaps thread 1. The threads have been moving quickly but I think have mostly avoided massive repetition thankfully.
For the first time ever I have read every single post - am off work after surgery so this is certainly keeping me occupied.

It isn't sexist to acknowledge that in our society the responsibility for childcare disproportionately falls upon women.

It is sexist to assume that women need someone else to generate employment for them to take up rather than being able to generate work themselves.

I am not in favour of westminster's FPTP system. I think the Scottish PR system is more democratic.

And I agree that the imbalance is a disgrace. But as someone who has a very upside down family set up compared to the traditional norm I'm not entirely convinced that state provided school hours childcare is going to solve the problem. It wouldn't fit with most jobs, and wrap around care is already as rare as hen's teeth and difficult to provide. I think childcare for school age is almost a bigger problem as the lack of availability rules out even those who can afford childcare. We need something far bigger, wider, deeper. And it's also going to take a very long time.