to start yet another Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 3 folks.

We should arrange an Indyref meet up at this stage.

I just don't agree that the current situation is undemocratic because I see myself as an equal voter in the UK, not an underrepresented Scottish voter.

Well, I do consider myself an underrepresented Scottish voter because I see issues affecting Scotland, and Scottish votes relating to these, being lost in the morass of votes from a more populous country whose issues and culture is very different from where I live. Perhaps you live in a city in the Central Belt where the differences may not be so acute as where I live, but they exist nonetheless. It is fundamentally undemocratic that a country is not governed by the people who live in it.

The bedroom tax had more of an impact on Scotland because we have a higher proportion of social housing.

The phrase is 'an Englishman's home is his castle' not a British man's. Scots have never been as enthusiastically homeowners as the English.

We are also building more social housing and even though there are waiting lists in many areas it isn't that hard getting a council house. We didn't need the bedroom tax. It didn't suit the make up of Scotland's social housing tenants or the available stock. It was a policy made by London designed to solve a London problem. It should never have been imposed here. It was the poll tax all over again.

With a no vote I'm scared what could happen after the 2015 election. What other policies that don't suit scotland will be imposed on us?

No, it is not sexist to point out that there are not enough jobs for everyone who would want one should there suddenly be so much childcare that all parents who wanted to work could. It's not wise to assume that there would be a huge surge in people opting for self employment - not every person (note person, not woman) is inclined towards generating work for themselves.

This thread is much more chilled-out so far, loving it. After all we all have to live together on Mumsnet afterwards!

Very sleepy right now (funny you should mention entrepreneurship, weatherall, have been away on an amazing course about creative enterprise - there is so much going on in Scotland!) and whilst I have thoughts about the democracy / representation thing it involves the exciting issue of voting systems which I'm just not capable of articulating right now. Have been planning on doing a blog post about it and if anyone's interested I'll post the link tomorrow.

Bringing up children and choosing how to do so is a responsibility of parents not just mothers.
Most working men are employees.

weatherall I don't share your belief that an independent Scotland would be any less sexist.

Where is wrap around care so rare?

I've had DCs in different local authorities and all the schools I've known have had breakfast and after school clubs which had plenty of space so we could use them flexibly.

The breakfast club used to be free but is now £1. The after school club was £7-12. £16 in the holidays (5 years ago)

It is fundamentally undemocratic that a country is not governed by the people who live in it.

This is a fundamental Yes vs No difference though. I live in Britain, which is governed by the people who live in it. I don't see the vast differences you see. Granted there are significant differences between the needs of the rural highlands and London - but are they that different to the differences between the needs of the rural highlands and Edinburgh? Or between the various regions of England, Wales or NI? I don't think so. You do. That's fine.

Afewfallenleaves-we have a greater proportion of women in the Scottish parliament and I expect this will increase over the next few years. Having more women in parliament has produced more female-friendly policies such as the breastfeeding in public law, an acknowledgement of gender based violence, the funding of several women's organisations like women's aid and rape crisis. I've spoken to workers from these orgs down south and they are terribly underfunded compared to their Scottish counterparts.

All of our local schools have after school clubs full to bursting and most of them don't even have breakfast clubs. The waiting lists are years long - honestly. It's shambolic - but there is no space to expand the existing clubs because they're having to build on every spare bit of playground to expand the actual schools.

We're talking a school of 240 with 26 spaces in asc, another of 400 with 40, 450 with 50 etc - all in quite expensive areas where employment is high and there is massive demand.

I think that there are lots of people m the English regions, Wales and NI who think there is a democratic deficit for them too and who would like to see more decision-making transferred to them. That's for them to sort out, though - we can only try to influence the situation here.

The Highlands and Edinburgh may have some different issues but they are also bound by common threads of culture, history and identity which provides the cohesion which makes us a country.

I understand the cultural differences between Scotland and England, and see the impact they have on decision-making re Scotland. Apart from anything else, I've first hand experience of the differences as I have been married to an Englishman for 20 years.

Wrap around care is severely limited at nursery age and then there are waiting lists at primary on certain days but people seem to juggle it with childminders.

Statistically: That's my view too, I feel I participate in a democracy and I have common aims with many people in Wales and England and NI.

In the 80s when I visited London it felt like the capital city of my country.

It felt like a bigger version of my own city. There was a unity.

But visiting there over the last 10 years it now feels a world away. There is money everywhere there. House prices are a league apart. It has become a global village city. It feels like a bubble and people there don't seem to value anything outside that bubble.

The City was built on oil money whilst industrial Scotland was left to rot.

I remember passing the boarded up estates of the 90s. Those people weren't feckless. They were robbed of their livelihoods by Tory governments then champagne socialists who carried on the London party.

It doesn't matter who we vote for at Westminster elections. They have had their chance to prove we are better together. Scotland's health and poverty statistics prove we aren't. The only option for change is independence.

bound by common threads of culture, history and identity - I feel this way about the whole of the UK. Our recent history is so intertwined that I don't feel any less similar to a Londoner, or a Georgie, or a Weegie! I value our shared 300 years of history more than the more ancient history before the union.

Afewfallenleaves - our local school has 1 childminder. A very busy 1!

The Scottish parliament has control over something like 60% of issues. WHy haven't they made more progress? After all health is devolved, as is education.

The Scottish parliament has control over something like 60% of issues. WHy haven't they made more progress? After all health is devolved, as is education.

I actually think it has made quite a bit of progress, especially as it only has control of 60% of issues (and not even total control of these as it has no tax-raising or borrowing powers and is therefore dependent on Westminster decisions re funding). The thought of what we could achieve with 100% control is very exciting.

I'm afraid that I don't think that the last 300 years of intertwined history have been very positive. They were disastrous for my part of Scotland and for many generations of my family. More recently, Westminster rule has meant centralisation, increasing child poverty, fuel poverty, poor public services facing further cutbacks year-on-year, social inequality and lack of opportunity which is still as strong as ever, disengagement of voters in the democratic process, and that's just for starters... Despite all this, we have kept our sense of nationhood and many distinctive values. It's time for a fresh start.

It is fundamentally undemocratic that a country is not governed by the people who live in it

This is what it boils down to for me, scone. We are just too small for our votes to make the difference they need to make. I wasn't in favour of a Yes vote at first and thought Devo Max would have been much better, but we weren't given that option.

I won't ever vote SNP (no offence to those who do), but I am a Green Yes and have been so heartened by the sense of participation and engagement this referendum has brought about in the young. I've said it before, but a lot of the students I've taught have said they feel they are voting in something where their opinion matters and might make a tangible difference, whereas with WM elections, it's firmly entrenched in their heads that their votes make no difference.

I guess I don't see Scotland as the dreadful place you see sconequeen. I think we have plenty of opportunities for example. Are their flaws with our public services, absolutely. But I'm not convinced throwing money at them is the right solution, and most of those I find issues with are either already devolved or locally governed.

What I meant re history was that I don't think a shared history with the rest of Scotland is a strong enough pull reason , because we have a massive shared history with rUK too. I also don't agree that all the bad things wouldn't have happened if we had been independent - independence doesn't make financially unviable industries suddenly work. You believe that being part of the UK has been disastrous for your part of Scotland etc - that's fine. I think independence would be disastrous for mine.

The Scottish parliament only has control of 7% of tax raising powers (soon rising to 12%). Independence will increase this to 100%.

Then we will have the means to tackle 100% of issues.

Big issues which are very important to people are reserved to Westminster eg tax & welfare and foreign policy which most Scots (going by Devo max poll support) would have wanted.

Scotland is a distinct place with very different needs not currently served by a London centric Westminster.

How welldo you actually know scotland? Have you visited the schemes? The islands? Aberdeen harbour?

We have a different economy, a different landscape, a different population density, a different language, a different higher education system.

Policies designed for London don't work here.

I thought it was telling that David Cameron came up here and done his speech in the Hilton when people on both sides are engaging at a grassroots level, filling sports centres and town halls to hear discussions and meetings.

I won't pretend to know ever part of Scotland, but yes I have visited a sizeable amount of it. I grew up in a "scheme", so I know plenty about them too. Realities of child poverty - yup, I was one of those statistics.

Please don't try to pull the "you only don't agree because you live in an insulated little bubble, you're so uninformed" crap. I don't agree that we are that different - I don't see Scotland vs UK, I just see different parts of the UK which is a very diverse place overall. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Doesn't mean you're wrong. Means we have a different perspective.

Why is it always male dominated industries that play the blame game, even decades later, while the rest of us are just expected to move and find another job?

Why does the Scottish Government spend so much time licensing male dominated industries and creating protective practices and ensuring non competitive pricing? If you introduce a rule that you must have your rents flat have a certain type of door lock fitted in order to be licensed, or a window meeting a certain, very precise standard, which, conveniently, is only provided by one or maybe two firms, you're not telling me that isn't collusion to create protective practices!

After all, the former statutory notice lot have to afford their million pound houses somehow!

If you want to be successful in Edinburgh, dont bother working hard and getting qualifications...

Someone has tried to sell a posts vote on ebay! In fact, it did sell for £1.04, but the Electoral Commission have stopped it!

*postal vote

I have to disagree re working hard and getting qualifications in Edinburgh chelsyhandy. Don't get me wrong there are issues but it is perfectly possible to get on without being one of the rich boys club.

More that I'm saying there is a very definate avenue for thugs and their cronies to get rich. So I you dont want to take the working hard route, you take the "council" route.

I'm during one of them just now. Former statutory noticed favoured contractor, carried out communal roofing works, paid agency share, and photos sho he hasn't bloody touched the roof, which still leaks.

Research reveals he has a criminal record for violent assault and is lucky not to have had one of his victims die, yet remarkably has never been jailed. Has a record of failed businesses, complaints about him to Trading Standards, yet nothing done. When he got my claim, I personally got a very sinister text message late at night. Police helpful but advised me, off the record, that he was pretty much untouchable.

There are lots flourishing like that.

Ah now in the context of politics /the council yup absolutely!