to start yet another Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 3 folks.

We should arrange an Indyref meet up at this stage.

In the event of a yes vote I will be very worried. And very upset at no longer being part of the uk.

I am angry with AS and Nicola Sturgeon for claiming that the right to control our own taxes will enable us to continue to have better public services than rUK without raising taxes.

Well, we will be looking at Devo max, which would mean higher taxes without true democracy, no control over defence/foreign policy and other reserved matters. Possibly out of the EU too. That will make me worried and angry.

You may be out of the EU either way.

Grovel, I just don't believe that.

We only don't have true democracy if you consider Scotland to be a separate country under the rule of the UK. Many people consider us to have an equal vote as members of the UK and therefore to be fully democratic

But chocolover Scotland already has tax raising powers, and chosen not to use them because it would influence the referendum result. After independence, who knows? Someone has to pay for all those promises. And for the unemployed shipyard workers.

You don't believe there is a chance that we won't be in the eu as soon as we're independent if we voted yes... Really? I don't see how anyone can be certain of the outcome of the eu talks, it's far from clear that we would be automatically accepted.

The EU question is fascinating, and there are so many permutations.

Personally, I believe an independent Scotland would be in the EU, but not as seamlessly as some would have us believe.

I also believe the UK will stay in the EU. I'm not clear the Tories will get an outright majority, I'm not convinced that UKIP can translate a (largely) protest vote in a PR election to a significant success in the first past the post General Election. I'm also not convinced the majority of the UK would vote to come out.

But there are a lot of variables, and a number of events could play out. What happens to an independent Scotland using (likely without a currency union) the currency of a non-EU country, and not yet meeting the criteria to join the Euro? What if Scotland is still negotiating EU membership as well as a common travel agreement with the UK, and still heavily trading with the UK?

If there is a No vote, and a subsequent in/out EU referendum I would vote to stay in. I know some (both on the Yes and No side, because both are far more of a spectrum of opinion than initially apparent as far as my experience goes) who would vote to come out. As I said, I'm not sure all the variables will fall into place to bring about an in/out referendum, but as we've established none of us are fortune tellers.

The current Scottish government has the right to raise or lower income tax by 3p in the pound I think.

Statistically, yes, that does seem to be the crux of the matter.

It's strange isn't it that the SNP wants more powers but hasn't used the ones it already has.
I believe this is because Salmond just wants the kudos of getting independence, regardless of the consequences.

Are people saying we are not a separate country under the rule of the UK? Didn't think I'd heard that argument.

And as for Paul McCartney - we've got a ticket to ride.

Erm, ok. My point was that some people think we are fairly represented, because each member of the Scottish population gets a vote just like every member of the English/Welsh/Northern Irish population. Therefore our system and representation is fully democratic. So they think about their vote as being equivalent to anybody else's.

Others think that Scotland as a whole tends to vote differently, Scotland is a separate country and doesn't always get what it votes for, Scotland is therefore ruled by England so therefore it is undemocratic.

I'm not sure what is quite so outrageous about that, frankly. Forgive me if referring to Scotland as "not a separate country" when it is currently a part of a union offends your nationalist sensibilities. I consider myself to be a British person who has a single vote the same as every other British person.

I've noticed the term "nationalist" being used in a negative manner recently.

If IrnBru is a Scottish nationalist, what would be so bad about that? Surely then, those supporting the Union are British nationalists?

Although I'm not convinced with the whole nationalism ideology, I've been thinking that it isn't a bad thing as long as it isn't taken to extremes (like the BNP, for example).

That's a problem when terminology gets 'attached' to extremism eg Nationalist = Republican or Unionist = BNP. Don't think I'm explaining that very well but you know what I mean?

I don't think sc would've meant nationalist sensibilities as a negative. I wouldn't mind being described as someone with unionist sensibilities either.

Denying that we are a country is probably a good way to create some more Nationalists though! All very enlightening, seeing how folk really think....

Oooh are some people thinking the wrong way!

I wasn't talking to IrnBru! And I didn't mean nationalist as a particularly negative term, I meant nationalist as in believes in Scotland as a separate nation! I meant it, as WildThong says as the opposite of Unionist.

Carry on twisting what I mean stoppedlurking56, I think what I am getting at is quite clear to everyone else.

More seriously though. If we are debating whether being in a union is still the best thing for us, it is surely relevant to analyse whether such union leads to a democratic deficit?

From down here in SE England I definitely see Scotland as a country. It is a country which sacrificed some of its ability to "self determine" when it signed the Act of Union. We all did the same when we joined the EU. Its how unions work.

Yes, it is. And my point was whether you believe it does lead to a democratic deficit is very much a point of how you consider the union and your role within it. That's not diminishing Scotland, it's history, it's people etc etc. It's just acknowledging that for many people after 300 years it's not necessarily Scottish first, British second and thinking about Scotland as a whole and a very separate entity.

Argh, bloody autocorrect deciding on my punctuation for me!

OK SC, point taken. I just haven't heard anyone actually say it in those terms before.
Afew - I have no agenda. I am interested. I am undecided. I have wavered over some time.