to start yet another Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 3 folks.

We should arrange an Indyref meet up at this stage.

I should say the reason I didn't post anything on facebook is that it is full of Yes votes shouting down anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly agree with them (and that's just my family lol)

I don't see many opportunities in engineering/manufacturing at the moment. I always thought that was an issue for the UK as a whole, with very little status accorded to engineering and technical subjects.

The UK remains a huge exporter of high-end manufacturing. By value (rather than volume) it is one of the world's most important exporters. I agree that engineering is not as respected in the UK as it ought to be, but for all that, the UK's recent record in areas like that is very good. Less ships, cars and brass door knockers, but more computer software for example.

Toad I wasn't going to get into that but yes UK engineering has a lot going for it.

It really could be worse.

I read somewhere recently that ricketts had returned to the UK. And I thought to myself that it had been back in NZ for some time, along with various respiratory diseases that ought to belong in the third world: diseases that are easily treatable and preventable, and only aren't because families just stop going to the GP because they can't afford to.

This in a country that is fiercely egalitarian and has always prided itself on progressivism - one of the first countries to bring in a welfare state, national insurance, pensions, and so on. Those egalitarian traditions are regarded, to an extent, as a Scottish cultural import.

Why did it go wrong? Answer: the country got poorer, and people started to compare what they had to others. Now, being on the benefit doesn't mean you're unfortunate: it means you're a loser. Very sad.

Stoppedlurking
New opportunities in government
There will certainly be some niche jobs, and these may offer opportunities for some of those made redundant by the move of civil service jobs to England. At the moment many civil servants in Scotland actually work on UK matters generally, and these departments will have to be slimmed down as 90% of the work is moved to England/Wales/NI.

Then there are the financial services companies that are already planning their move to London in the event of a Yes vote. And new orders for large navy ships that will be placed in October. These are currently planned for the Clyde but will not be placed there if Scotland becomes independent.

You have to remember that independence means Scotland will be a foreign country. It will be in direct competition with the UK, and neither country can expect any favours from the other.

frankblackswife you know you should get off Facebook, right?!

Right I'm off down the road, and I'll give a smile to the Yes campaigner in memory of Numanoid!

I imagine the situation would be akin to the UK's relationship with Ireland. A close trading relationship, with plenty of cross-border migration, but no special favours.

Whereas Salmond says there will be a currency union, a joint defence force, presumably joint military procurement (ie, jobs for Glasgow shipyards), and of course joint university funding.

Has he asked the rUK about this?

No.

Another English person here who doesn't want Scotland to leave or doesn't know of anyone else in my network in the South East that wants it either, including all of the England-based Scottish people. I have to say though, if there is going to be a neverendum in the event of a no vote, I can't see the union lasting too much longer.
The thought of the English wanting to offload Wales and NI is pretty offensive, I have never even heard of that before.

On the prescriptions point, about 60% of all people in England get free prescriptions anyway; children, pensioners, low paid families. As pensioners and children account for most prescriptions written, about 85 or 90% of prescriptions issued in England are free. I do think the UK should all be the same, but appreciate that the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Government reduce their budget in other places to pay for this. There is research out there saying free prescriptions has led to increased prescriptions in Wales and Scotland, as people don't want to pay for over the counter when they can get it free, but I have no idea how reliable this information is and it doesn't impact English people as their budget covers it.

I know AFewFallenLeaves, I know...

It's quite depressing, on of my aunts posted last week 'Vote yes or be a cunt'. She's actually a really nice lady but has become an aggressive frothing preacher over this. I can actually see it causing a rift in the family which is a bloody shame...

Has he asked the rUK about this?

Salmond has now introduced this idea of a 'mandate' that gives him the right to demand things. But Westminster has a 'mandate' from the rest of the UK not to give anything away. It's a 9:1 majority.

Unfortunately when people don't get all the things that were promised in the White Wishlist, there is going to be great resentment.

The SNP will blame Westminster for being spiteful and not granting what they want, and the No voters will blame the Yes voters for getting them into a mess.

You can already see how it's going by the brawls in the street and the spiteful comments on social media. And this is only the start.

So sad :(

So should the whole thing not have happened?

Sallying I asked a question a few days ago (think it was on the 2nd thread() if everything would calm down and get back to normal after the vote. I think i was a bit naive asking that question!
It seems that whatever happens Yes or No,- Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK will be changed forever, one way or another.

Unfortunately when people don't get all the things that were promised in the White Wishlist, there is going to be great resentment.

Someone told me on Facebook last week that the white paper is a legally binding contract.

OOAOML noooooooooooo!!!

Ah, the magic great white wishlist. Where we can magically cut taxes, hugely increase spending in loads of areas and it'll all be paid for by...Erm...

I've not seen anything about a joint defence force?

And of course, a lot of the White Paper is effectively an SNP manifesto, and should be read as such.

What is important is that nobody on the No side has said that Scotland can't be a successful independent country, which is completely true. The question is not whether Scotland can go it alone, but whether Scotland should go it alone.

From the delightful Kilted Kelpie facebook page

Sadly there are an awful lot of people who do believe the white paper to be fact and will quote it as what Scotland will be like.

OOAOML

I might print that out and stick it on my car

Loads on the Kilted Kelpie page

You lot don't know what it'll be like either, none of what you predict is set in stone either. It's the future! The future is uncertain whatever way you vote. I wish you would all stop spouting your fears as facts whilst laughing at other peoples "wishes". None of you know what will happen. We all can all take educated guesses based on our opinions and back them up with our interpretations of the figures anecdotes, but no one of us know.

Well, I occasionally laugh at stuff as a bit of light relief. I don't claim to know what the future will be like. I thought we were able to have a bit of fun here but apparently not.

Thing is deeedeee, Alex Salmond has said those two things. His promises do contradict each other. It's frighteningly woolly, some of the stuff he comes out with. At other times, plainly disingenuous.

As I've said on a previous Indy thread I think, I do understand, and have some admiration for the ideology of a Yes vote (I am English, lived in Scotland for aeons, married to a Scot). I think the wish for self-determination has some validity. But I also think independence will bring hardship for a very long time. I think people have no idea how much worse it could get before it gets better.

Sometimes it's so serious, you have to laugh.

Frankly with the insanity of some of the wondrous promises floating about if I didn't laugh I'd bloody cry. So I'm gonna laugh instead.

I think that some people do indeed have the feeling that it couldn't be any worse. For some that's economic - there is a huge chasm between the various social strata. For others, it's a democratic deficit, or a feeling of disconnect with current status quo. Many people wish for better. For some, it would be "even better". I actually don't believe it would be a zero sum game.