to start yet another Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 3 folks.

We should arrange an Indyref meet up at this stage.

My Yes voting lawyer friend or rather, one of them is absolutely convinced that Cameron actually wants to "lose" Scotland as every time he contributes ineptly to the debate, the Yes vote goes up .

The Conservative chairman was apparently videoed a) offering influence dinners with George Osborne, for a fee and b) saying that the Conservatives actually didn't want Scotland to remain in Union but couldn't be seen saying that. Hence getting Darling to be the figurehead of the Better Together campaign - it's all Labour's responsibility.

Not sure I agree with his conspiracy theory though - I think Salmond was a consummate politician, letting Cameron thinking that he wanted Devomax. Cameron exhibited hubris in assuming that No would win - but with Devomax (which would have won) off the table, it is now a little too close for comfort.

Nah, I don't think so prettybird. The negotiations would be so long and complex, no one wants that. Plus they fall right in the middle of the General Election.

I don't think that's true. I could be wrong but even on an individual level would Cameron want to be the PM who presided over the dissolution of the union? I really doubt that.

I also think if they'd wanted to lose Scotland they'd have made this a far more Conservative centric campaign rather than it being led by Labour. They know that the tories aren't exactly popular - send a bunch of English Tories up to campaign if you want to be seen to be trying to keep Scotland but be sure of losing it!

We have our main home and second home in Scotland and have had two sets of cards. Obviously we'll be using just the one set.

Thanks Team Scotland. As you have a permanent residedence in Scotland that seems reasonable. I am struggling to get my head around second home owners with their main residence outside Scotland having a vote. The people I am talking about have a v expensive home in London which would be their main residence for the purposes of tax so this seems inconsistent with the Citizens Advice info.

My friend's argument is that by having put Darling/Labour in charge, Cameron could dissociate himself/the Tories from the result if the vote is Yes, but claim credit if the vote is No. Don't buy it myself.

I think the Tories will be happy to lose Scotland, the head Tories are English and if they lose Scotland they're more likely to retain power in England.
I don't credit the Tories with much long term thinking. They're a bunch of pampered elite boys who only look after themselves.
I quite like Annabel when she was queen of the Scottish Tories but think if yes wins they may see a resurgence if they form a completely separate party.

I could well see us swinging right. I think the current Tories have a major branding/image problem in Scotland - we have a long collective memory and anything which is the same party as Thatcher has little chance. I actually sometimes wonder if that has more to do with our apparent socialism than anything else - more of an "I will never vote Tory" than a belief in more left wing politics?

It would be interesting to see, if we became independent, what parties would emerge. I don't think SNP would exist - they're so diverse otherwise that I think it would fragment. Could well see a party emerging from there with a more right wing stance (centre right rather than loony right ), possibly forming up with the tory remnants?

I don't think this is a Conservative ploy at all. I do like a conspiracy theory, this one is just meh.
Annabel Goldie was good, very old school. I also like Ruth Davidson. She certainly isn't a pampered elite boy stereotypical politician, particularly for the Conservative party!

Funny you should say that sc (re the SNP fragmenting in the event of a No vote). That is a view I have heard several times in the last few days in RL.

I think the SNP would rebrand, maybe trim off a few members and gain a couple of others.

It all depends how the negotiations would go of course- Elections are 5 May 2016!

meikyo presumably they have registered to vote here?

After talking to relatives today it seems the general consensus is that if you're poor there's nothing to lose by voting Yes, but people who are wealthy/well off are more likely to vote No...Not sure if this holds any significance.

I'm somewhere in the middle and voting Yes. Not long now til 18th!

I think they'd survive until then - they'd be kind of busy negotiating! But beyond that I'm not sure that they have a particularly coherent vision as a party. It shows up quite obviously in the White Paper actually. I'm sure a part of that is them trying to promise something for everything to attract voters but I wonder how much it represents the internal issues and the huge range of stances. They're simultaneously promising tax reductions and significant spending increases (albeit without necessarily admitting they're increases!) for example

Meikyo, your London-dwelling family members should not have a vote in the indyref, though it's certainly not the first such attempt at electoral fraud of which I've heard. They'd have to be on the Electoral Roll at their second home to have a vote, do you know if they are?

After talking to relatives today it seems the general consensus is that if you're poor there's nothing to lose by voting Yes, but people who are wealthy/well off are more likely to vote No...Not sure if this holds any significance.

I don't agree. I know a lot of people who are just comfortable and they know they can't afford to lose and they're mostly No-s.

I'm interested in seeing the youth vote stats for one.

this is the best one yet

I don't think the split between yes and no it's just to do with wealth. or age. or location.

I think it's whether or not you are happy with, complicit with, invested in or able to recognise and not a subject to the political ideology that has been built up the last 40 years the uk.

I think it's whether or not you are happy with, complicit with, invested in or able to recognise and not a subject to the political ideology that has been built up the last 40 years the uk.

Are you suggesting No voters are brainwashed?

"I'm interested in seeing the youth vote stats for one."

Yes Santana I'm also interested in this after the results come out. I'm very keen to see the trend in the young voters. It's the first time they've had the chance to have a say.

Off to read the rest of the Sunday Herald, checking back in tomorrow though - hope the thread doesn't move again too fast!! It's taking me ages to read pages I have missed to keep up (glad I missed the dirty part last night!).

After talking to relatives today it seems the general consensus is that if you're poor there's nothing to lose by voting Yes, but people who are wealthy/well off are more likely to vote No...Not sure if this holds any significance.

Definitely not my experience. I have many high networth friends and family who are voting Yes - lawyers, doctors, teachers, academics and business people - some retired, the majority still working. Can't comment on the "schemes" 'cos I'm a snob because I don't know anyone who live in them .

My No voting friends include a SAHM, a retired primary head teacher and a member of the landed gentry (sort -of - he certainly has lots of inherited wealth and is likely to inherit lots of land).

So all in all, a wide demographic for both "sides".

We might need to start a thread 4 without you!

My no voters include a few aristos, a few lawyers, lots of FS professionals (accountants, actuaries etc etc) through to someone who has lived on benefits for 35+ years. The Yes voters I know I would say are, on average, lower earning but I wouldn't even attempt to extrapolate from that.

Oldlady and others...my relatives vote in both London and Scottish elections, e.g. at general elections, English council elections, Scottish parliament. I believe that they only vote once in general elections. They have requested postal votes for the independence referendum to be delivered to their holiday home. They pay council tax in Scotland so maybe this entitles them to vote?
They have asked us to pick up the postal votes and post to them on to their London address. This does not sit right with me.

Are you suggesting No voters are brainwashed?

No, I said

either

happy with the political ideology
or
complicit with the political ideology
or
invested in the political ideology
or
able to recognise and not a subject to to the political ideology