to be shocked and scandalised that this went on unchecked for so long? [MN edit; contains details of current Rotherham news story, possibly triggering]

[ReputableBiscuit]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

In the actual report (available here:
www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham ), there is a whole chapter to discuss the issue of ethnicity. It mentions the Muslim Woman's Network study which showed that grooming and abuse occurred amongst Asian girls and women too.

If people really think that racism was the only reason this wasn't dealt with...

Just skimming through the report and it's quite clear these children were viewed with utter disdain by the authorities, with the scale of the problem being consistently minimised, there's even mention of some children being arrested for being drunk and disorderly?!

We are only scratching the surface of grooming, it is a huge problem as is the exploitation of vulnerable children generally.

This is not about immigration. It is about class and gender, fundamentally.

As said below, it didn't happen to middle class girls.

The police role here also needs more examining.

There is definitely a cultural element, isn't there? The notion of 'child prostitution', for example, which was prevalent amongst attitudes of police and social services .

If course there is no such thing- abuse of under 16s is abuse. But on this very site, the notion of child prostitution has been referred to in some discussions this summer.

This is an issue about how we run society. A different researcher would have written a more mealy mouthed report.

There is an issue of leadership, eg at LA level, and of education and training at work.

However there are people who are going to use this story to have an anti Asian or anti immigrant rant.

People who abuse children should be brought to justice whoever they are. Black or white, straight or gay, rich or poor.

Because there are plenty of all categories.

Also, the police have no problem convicted people of all colours for all other kinds of crime, including murder and organised crime.

Yet, there seems to be a huge problem with securing convictions across the board for sexual abuse and violence.

As a side note, the IPCC are currently investigating three police forces for not taking action against Ian Watkins, because allegations had been made for four years before anyone had bothered to arrest him.

I am from rotherham and I can say that none of us in this area is shocked by today's revelations. It's disgusting that this is happening around us and we now have no trust in the people we should be able to trust the most!!

We are not shocked by all of this because the main area these sick people come from is such a scary place, there is police there constantly (24/7) for murders, drugs, rapes and gang wars ect..

It's such a horrible place and it's very scary to walk through, there is not a day that goes by that we don't hear of something that's happened and then there's hardly ever any follow up in the news or the people that have committed the crimes are walking the streets a day or 2 later.

With the way things are going here it's going to end up in one big race war as we have no one to stand up for us

I'm not racist I believe there is bad in every culture especially in our area but this is just pushing it a bit!!

Ps I read the whole report, by the way, this afternoon.

I have to disagree snapes
Is this the common opinion of Middle Eastern men? White British women are whores?
No
Going off at a bit of a tangent but ...
My Dsis (white, late 30s) lived in the West Bank for a while ...she was harassed on the streets. Because she was Western and therefore a slut.
The men there don't have a healthy' attitude to women anyway. Stories of men thinking they were 'real' men and proud that their brides have to taken to hospital on their wedding night. She thinks that is down to being repressed and ignorance.
Their attitude towards white - or rather Western - women being 'easy' mainly comes from watching pop videos.
As to sex with underage girls...it is difficult. Our age of consent is much older than a lot of countries around the world. In lots of countries it is the onset of menstruation - so physically mature.
Islam came from a culture where child brides were common. It is (mainly) believed that Mohammad married his last wife when she was 6-7 and the marriage was consummated when Mohammad was 53 ish and she was 9-10. It makes uncomfortable reading.
My DP's mother (from an Arabic country) was about 14 when she was married. She definitely had 4 children before she was 20. Her mother was married at 10 and had 16 children - most of which died.
Then again in this country the age of consent was much lower until relatively recently (late 1800s)- in middle ages it was 12 - and surprisingly in Spain it is still 13, in lots of other 'Western' countries - eg Germany- it is 14. (But a lot also have laws which cover exploitation)
Not that I agree with a lower age of consent - just that we shouldn't be too judgey of different cultures attitude to it.
That doesn't really come into play in this - it isn't just the age of the girls but also the treatment - they were being abused and exploited. I think fear of being accused of being racists did play a part - but also the attitude towards the victims. I think we would be wrong to ignore either as a factor.

Beastof burden Im afraid that it is STILL like that in the uk. Theyve just become more subtle about it thats all.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2733220/Women-don-t-sleep-wedding-happier-marriages-men-play-field-without-worry-study-finds.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

And i totally agree that the fact these abhorrent crimes ran unchecked is because of classism and misogyny.

Snapespotions

my friend comes from Rochdale and told me a few years ago that this had been going on for years and years there

So what action did your friend take about this, ilove. If I had known about something like this, I'd have been shouting from the rooftops till something was done.

well for a start she was a teenager a troubled one at that,i should imagine it would be pretty scary going to the police and as they knew all about it and done nothing about it why would she put herself in a vunrable position

lots of people turned a blind eye,when you know the police know and do nothing would you really put your neck on the line and a female teen also

ha ha you would be shouting it from the rooftops, somehow i dont believe it

Agree, backpacked all over Europe. Got to Turkey and you were constantly sexually assaulted. The attention on a western woman without a male companion is nothing like what you get in the UK or anywhere else I travelled in Europe. Was similar in Israel to a degree though not as bad. Egypt was also threatening at times and I know most other women have similar stories. Been back since with my husband and it is a very different experience. Usually uneducated boys/men with not a lot of access to western women. Obviously not every man was like this (not at all) but it's not people's prejudices or imaginations.

In the Uk, some men think nothing of going to countries like Thailand where they can access easy sex. Some men seem to think when the women/girls aren't your own - anything is acceptable. Or if they are "easy" "poor" or "slut" types then again they deserve it and anything goes.

Bam Im in Essex and i once had a guy walk up to me and just start chatting and he simply said "Im Turkish" i just walked off.

I was watching My Online Bride last week about marriage agencies in Thailand

"Whether they were virgins or not is neither here nor there. Do you think they would have backed off if they found out some of the young girls they wanted to abuse were virgins."

I think the point that some posters are trying to make is that cultural attitudes which put a strong emphasis on virginity before marriage for "respectable" women can be connected with the treatment of prostitutes and with how widespread the use of prostitutes is.

When there are cultural demands for "nice" women to remain pure until marriage while men are expected to be sexually experienced, this produces the need for sex workers--who are expected to mop up men's need for sex and thereby protect the "nice" women from lewd intentions.

And once a woman has been consigned to the role of prostitute in a sexually conservative society, she can be treated as badly as you like--she is, after all, a "fallen woman."

In Britain, prostitution was much commoner before the Pill and the sexual revolution, for this very reason; in countries like Thailand, the number of men visiting prostitutes has fallen massively as attitudes towards sex and towards women's rights have become more liberated.

Child prostitution and forced prostitution are problems in all societies, regardless of race or religion, but I would suggest that conservative and sexist attitudes may contribute towards such pheneomena being more widespread.

The original poster maybe phrased it a bit clumsily, but I don't think it's unreasonable to point out that countries like Pakistan seem to have, shall we say, a bit of a "problem" with women's and girls' rights. To put it mildly. The female literacy rate in Pakistan is variously estimated at 26-33%--that's absolutely beyond dire for a country which has been independent for half a century.

'Their attitude towards white - or rather Western - women being 'easy' mainly comes from watching pop videos.'

It comes partly from the entertainment industry, but it has more to do with porn which horribly objectifies white women. This might explain also why the sex tourism industry is growing in the far east as oriental women are also objectified in a similarly degrading way that would cause men to develop these disgusting sexual fantasies about women of a particular culture or race.

Not that I agree with a lower age of consent...That doesn't really come into play in this

So why mention it. Incidentally christianity and judaism started off in the same place as Islam - the middle east. Some biblical historians estimate Mary was 11 years old when she conceived Jesus. Would you relate that to the rate of teen pregnancies or child abuse in Europe? I really find it quite sad how people are only performing these cultural analysis on external cultures but dont want to analyse their own when they are looking at these sorts of crimes. Child marriages occur in parts of the world where there is widespread poverty, low life expectancy, few educational and job opportunities for women. I watched an interesting documentary once about child marriage in Kenya amongst the Masai mara and the young woman interviewed said that parents often felt they were doing the best thing for their daughters not that they were harming them. As they had very little other opportunities to have a secure, prosperous life except through marriage - an attitude that was common in Europe when it was in a comparative level of development. Many of the countries where child marriages occur including India and Yemen happen in rural areas not urban ones where people are generally better educated. In the capital city of Yemen the young child brides are often called death brides by the locals because of their pity for them and disdain for the practice. There are many indigenous rights groups both within India and Yemen that are who are working and campaigning to stop this practice. Same culture, same religion but different attitude towards the same practice because of better education and economic opportunities.

I think the point that some posters are trying to make is that cultural attitudes which put a strong emphasis on virginity before marriage for "respectable" women can be connected with the treatment of prostitutes and with how widespread the use of prostitutes is.

I absolutely disagree that they are connected. The use of prostitutes within countries that have strong attitudes against pre marital sex is not anymore widespread then it is in countries where people are not bothered by it. Some countries that have little or no problem with premarital sex have booming sex industries. Also prostitutes are treated very poorly throughout the world. Wasnt there a campaign on mumsnet a while ago about a website where male users of prostitutes would go and rate them often describing them in really dehumanising ways. The opposite of that, a website for prostitutes to discuss punters also featured hideous stories about their experiences with some men who were aggressive. This was all in the UK.

When there are cultural demands for "nice" women to remain pure until marriage while men are expected to be sexually experienced, this produces the need for sex workers--who are expected to mop up men's need for sex and thereby protect the "nice" women from lewd intentions.

First of all the cultural expectation is that men and women remain sexually inexperienced until marriage. Their is a greater tolerance amongst some for men flouting these expectations but it is still not something that would be looked on favourably within society in general. For example you wouldnt want your parents or inlaws to know you have slept around. The last bit of your paragraph is purely fantastical. Sex workers are a ubiquitous feature of human civilisation and history. Where ever there are people willing to pay for sex there will be people who will be selling sex. This happens in developed countries, underdeveloped countries, countries with strict laws against prostitution and countries with lax laws. Its funny that you say they are used to mop up unfulfilled men's needs. Do you know many of the men convicted in these gangs were actually married so could have had sex with a presumably consenting adult. Even if they did have unfulfilled sexual needs or desires there are plenty legal channels to access that with consenting adult female partners and I hardly think some of the young males involved would have had much trouble getting partners if what they wanted was just sex. It wasnt just about having sex it was about abusing underage girls, just like the white grooming gang I mentioned in a previous post who targeted underage boys could have obtained sex with consenting male adults (eachother for instance) if they wanted but the actions were not about sexual fulfillment they were about sexual abuse of vulnerable people. It all quite sickening but whats even more sad is how people are trying to twist this in to a race or cultural issue when these are crimes that are unfortunately prevalent in every place.

The female literacy rate in Pakistan is variously estimated at 26-33%--that's absolutely beyond dire for a country which has been independent for half a century.

Actually the figures I have seen in my brief search on websites like the World bank and Unesco have firgures ranging from 40-60% looking at age group. That is pretty low but not as low as some countries in lets say in sub saharan africa. It also hardly surprising when public spending on education in Pakistan is less than 5%. Once again there is a more complex story here which people want to banish to the sidelines and instead focus on inconsequential factors like race or religion. Poverty is the key. Who cares how long Pakistan has been independent (and 50 years is a very short time by the way) what matters is how developed it is. It is an underdeveloped, relatively poor country, with an unstable corrupt government that is not interested in improving the plight of its people but is more concerned with holding on to power. If their is instability and poverty what hope do you have of improving access to education for all. If you look in rural areas you will find that literacy rates for men are also shockingly low simply because people just do not have the money to pay the school fees. In some cases if you have limited funds to send your children to school then you may prioritise educating males over females simply because they generally have better work prospects. That is not a cultural consideration that is an economic one.

I would add in rural areas they also have poor access to educational facilities due in part to low public spending on it. The firgures I saw for Pakistan's spending on education was actually something like 2.5% so actually the figure I gave was most probably too high. Pakistanis that I know who are well educated have mostly been educated in private schools in Pakistan as the public schools are so bad. Private education is a big business in Pakistan from what they tell me.

The problem is when we import a lot of men from places which treat women like that Pakistan etc then those men import their attitudes here. Most women know the countries where men are at their worst - Egypt is pretty bad too. Even Latino countries are not great. We are just a bit more advanced over here although not saints (note masses of child sex abuse by fathers and stepfathers by Englishmen too of course).

However as feminists we do need to ensure that allowing freedom of cultures and immigration we do not import actions which are illegal or wrong - the sexism of many immigrant cultures, to have a bad impact on girls here including the children of those cultures if they are kept insulated from the feminism most of the nation shares.

People in the UK are too quick to shout conspiracy at anything unpalatable and there is so much stuff covered up here this and Savile etc is the tip of a very big iceberg

If you work for the LA in a place like Rotherham even an allegation of racism is probably the end of your prospects. I cannot blame anyone who avoided mentioning ethnicity. They have lives to lead and the mortgage to pay.

I went to school with were abused in the same way. At the time we all looked down on them which I'm ashamed of now I can see they were victims.

You were a child.

The police were not, but they had the same opinion.

I have criticised the red tape but I still think the police are ineffective because they don't want to appear racist.

I think it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with sexism. The police had and have a certain view of the world and teenage girls being sexually active are not viewed as victims.

I am shocked that people are shocked because this has been going on for years. How many years ago now did the home secretary raise this question in the House?

I think it's not purely race. Exposing this will open the flood gates and there are many police/politicians/judges etc implicated in similar

I hope Ann Cryer gets a public apology too as should all the victims and compensation for their suffering.

Heads need to roll for this. Pensions need to be withheld if police/social workers and judiciary ignored this and failed in their jobs.

People should be prosecuted and jailed for this both the perpetrators and those who failed in their jobs.

Stripped bare from ridiculous notions of culture and religion which, let's face it. are all mysogynistic excuses for power and control over women and children the plank ugly fact is these were paedophiles who were for done reason protected.

We need to find out why. Paedophiles protect other paedophiles.