to be shocked and scandalised that this went on unchecked for so long? [MN edit; contains details of current Rotherham news story, possibly triggering]

[ReputableBiscuit]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

Panorama programme showed co-ordinated cover -up. Who will pursue this?

I remember how I was sworn at college by an Asian lad and referred to as the little white girl by the girlfriend. this was 1989.

Cultural attitudes may have played a part but I think it's erroneous to suggest it went on unchecked because of fears of being accused of being racist.

I've worked alongside the criminal justice system and fear of being accused of racism don't play a part - you've only got to look at arrest and conviction rates of minorities.

What happened is that children and young people were abused by a group of men. Sometimes the authorities were not being proactive enough and sometimes I think they just felt helpless.

I've seen both sides. Young people clearly being exploited and abused but they can't see that at the time and feel like the person that is abusing them is the only one who really cares. The only one who loves them. The only one who sees how 'mature' they are and treats them as such.

It's not specific groups of society who are the problem - it's much wider than that. The fact there are so many young people so desperate for attention and love but don't have a healthy idea of what that means or what it 'looks like'.

The fact that as a society we view troubled kids as problematic or 'other' to us and our lives and our children.

It happens on Mumsnet all the time - threads about alcoholics, addicts, prisoners always contain negative and judgemental views. I've worked with addicts and prisoners and most (not all) have been abused at some stage.

So as a society we clutch our pearls about child abuse but in a few years time when those kids are robbing our houses, injecting heroin, neglecting their kids or abusing us in any way we don't want to know any more.

Apologies for typo - should read 'fears of being accused of racism don't play a part'.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04hcg6z

Stolen Childhoods: The Grooming Scandal

I wonder if anyone else saw this, apologies if it has been linked to previously.

MrsBolden

Its clear from this documentary that this:
Sometimes the authorities were not being proactive enough and sometimes I think they just felt helpless.

Is not true, to say it was a catastrophic failure is an underinvestment.

Race and religion are relevant, clearly, because the pattern of offending and the behaviour of the perpetrators (and sometimes victims-e.g. the likelihood of being shamed and ostracised for victims from some populations silences them very effectively, sometimes there's a language barrier and inability to access help, etc etc) is shaped by it. The problem is different and the investigation will be different depending on who the people concerned are.

It's much more difficult (and sensitive) to say that the propensity to commit this type of crime stems from cultural factors, but that is quite possibly also the case on occasions. Sometimes the culture permits child marriage, so what we see as offending is simply a normality-look at some Roma communities where marriage at 13-15 may well be commonplace.

The thing is that it still doesn't entitled people to stereotype and stigmatise everyone and anyone from the group in question. The Rotherham and Oxford groups, and I know there are others, were not subtle about their offending. By virtue of being a minority group, a lot of what they do may be more remarked upon.

Men from other groups may well be as bad or worse but happily staying under the radar. We're not in a particularly good position to make a comparison between Rotherham Pakistani Muslims (of the particular stamp concerned) and men of other ethnicities and religions.

In an article in the Guardian today Iman Amrani discusses how hard it is for abused Muslim children to disclose their abuse as it is seen as bringing intolerable shame on the family.

Beyond Rotherham: Muslims are also silent victims of sexual abuse

A disturbing account here of the reaction of one woman's family The extraordinary story of Ruzwana Bashir: the Oxford-educated entrepreneur brought up in a British-Pakistani community shares her own story to tear down the wall of silence around the exploitation of Asian girls

I have a real problem with cultures/religions that hold this attitude, one that is obviously not confined to the Muslim community but was also seen in the cover ups in the RC abuse.

Beyond: I was probably projecting my own experiences in terms of knowing cases in my professional sphere of working with suspected abusers themselves and I was attending MAPPA meetings (not in S.Yorks) where we knew kids in LA care were being found in suspected abusers homes by Police after the foster carers or childrens homes were reporting they'd be there.

The young people wouldn't report abuse or say anything negative about the abusers so there was nothing the Police could act on and often the young person would run away from 'care' again and be found in the suspected abusers house again the following week and the next week and so on. Often the young people verbally or physically abused the Police and social workers from trying to stop them seeing their abusers because they were so completely groomed that they felt the abuser was their 'boyfriend' and/or the only one who really cared about them. But they wouldn't tell the authorities that, they'd say the abuser was just a 'friend' and the abuser would say to Policeb'they're a kid, they ran away and I can't see them sleep on the street can I? I had to take them in'.

That's what I meant by perhaps authorities including the Police feeling helpless.

Thanks Mothership for the link to that most interesting article.

Mrs Bolden, in the documentary it makes clear why the girls wouldn't say anything bad about the abusers, it was because they were either groomed, and or groomed and scared.

The bottom line was, no matter what the girls said, they were being abused by older men. Older men, known to the authorities.

This information, was held back from one desperate Father whilst he was lied too, and they left by accident a piece of paper in the file given to him, saying they knew they men were violent abusers.

One girl in question in the Panorama documentary was 14 and arrested, and yet the Man called Ash was left and nothing done.

The evidence collated by the lady from the home office in the documentary makes it very clear, what the girls were going through and how let down they were by the police and the SS, there are no two ways about it.

Its as clear and concise as it can be.

Parents were arrested, the children being abused were arrested, the SS told the parents they could not accept their DC growing up. However with reference to the abusers, the lady who said, hang on, there is a pattern here the predominant abusers in this case are Asian, she was told to never say that again and she was sent on a two day course.

Desperate agencies came together to try and get the council to listen, parents screaming for help and children being raped. And it was the parents and children who were targeted twice by the very people supposed to help them.

So now everyone is seeing this for the grooming and abuse it was, what can be done to protect children in the cases like MrsBolden refers to.

If the children have been so well groomed that they refuse to accept that they are being abused, probably with a hefty dose of mistrust for SS and the police, how do you protect them???

Well the law protects them for a start as sex with a minor is against the law. So if the law did their job , ie the police and actually arrested these men, and the SS told the parents and the other authorities all they knew, instead of lying to the parents and subverting the course of justice with obfuscation, it would certainly, help.

If you watch the documentary its all there.

Many of the girls were frightened and told the police what was happening and they were simply, ignored.

The police were demanding proof of wrongdoing from the drugs researcher who pointed out abuse was going on, as she said she thought it was the police's job to investigate and find proof. This whole thing stinks.

YY Fallen Leaves.

I don't think anyone is particularly to blame but I do think that if the police had done their job properly and not assumed that girls in care are 'fair game' and don't understand that grooming is akin to brainwashing and that the girls really can't help what they do and are vulnerable, this would have been avoided. Only the police have the power to intervene where abuse is concerned. Only legal action against perpetrators can provide justice and security. They didn't need a massive investigation, if they had done their job properly, with every girl that was reported as abused, this wouldn't have needed a massive investigation, would never have required the council or any other agencies or even social services.

The girls just needed justice to take its course and it didn't.

Good to know that something can be done even if the children won't co-operate. I will definitely watch the documentary.

remember a long time ago in the 80s when social services took several dc from 1 town into care, in the North on suspicion which was unfounded so why couldn't action be taken here?

Those who put pressure on the Home Office researcher and whoever stole her files would be on my list of people to blame! Social workers with abusers names from years past who stood by while new girls were drawn in, I'd blame them too tbh.

Did you see Panorama Unrealhousewife?

Lack of introspection and taking responsibility for the crimes committed and the cover up, by the Pakistani community will sadly mean that such abuse will continue.

It's common knowledge within Pakistani circles that 'white women' are viewed as trash. Good as girlfriends or for casual sex, but not wife material. These attitudes run deep and across generations. I don't see them changing any time soon.

Where is the soul searching, questioning and anger from the Pakistani community about how they let this happen to girls from their own neighbourhoods ? Double standards at play once again as you can bet there would have been riots had the situation been reversed.

Lack of introspection and taking responsibility for the crimes committed

But why would they not be introspective?

What are the women in Pakistani communities doing? On the Panorama documentary it was suggested the women at home were probably being abused as well/.

But why would they not be introspective?

Do you mean why would they be introspective ?

I didn't watch the Panorama programme, but coming from a Pakistani family I can categorically say that many muslim women would have been complicit in the abuse by turning a blind eye.

No doubt some Pakistan women were probably being abused, but don't start believing that all Pakistani women are victims under the control of their men. Most in fact aren't. Many would have known exactly what is going on. They just don't see it as wrong as 'they are only white trash' who probably led their darling sons and brothers on.

... coming from a Pakistani family I can categorically say that many muslim women would have been complicit in the abuse by turning a blind eye ... Many would have known exactly what is going on. They just don't see it as wrong as 'they are only white trash' who probably led their darling sons and brothers on

OUCH!!!!!

May I say I think it was very brave of you to write of your experience of this, MistressMia. I doubt you'll get many thanks for it on here, though ...

I agree with mistress Mia as I have encountered these attitudes but I have also heard first hand of abuse within the communities under discussion by uncles and husbands. Also been told by my manager in social services to ignore my suspicions of domestic violence because it is normal in ( a certain Asian ) marriage and not my concern!

mistressmia I have heard similar from Arab Muslim friends. I get very fed up of the infantilising of Muslim women, as though they have no voice at all and cannot be aware of the problems in their communities. Yes they can be!