to think parents should make room for adults by getting their kids to sit on their laps.

[Bouttimeforwine]

I have always done this, in waiting rooms, on buses, anywhere really. Even till they were too big really to be sitting on laps. Even now I will get them to sit on the floor at friends houses so that adults get the chairs. It's polite and the way I was brought up.

I often see children taking up a space, when it would be easy just to pop them on your knee for a short period of time. I know for a fact that some of these parents have no physical reason not to do this. They just think that their child has as much right as an adult to have that seat. True but it's not good manners is it?

AIBU?

I suppose that is the point, many people keep referring to London transport but the vast majority of us don't live in London and different rules apply. Lothian buses don't allow any standing and stagecoach buses consider young people to be a group that needs extra consideration along with the elderly and disabled.
Even in London though a bit of common sense alongside the rules could go a long way (such as letting a child have a seat on a packed tube to avoid them getting squashed etc).

I find it very hard to stand on a very crowded tube with a child as I can't reach the wrist loops, so they have no anchor point really to keep them standing.

Fair enough Jassy! I just wondered which posters you were talking about.

So...

All those with obvious vulnerabilities are given a seat no questions asked
All those who ask for a seat are given one on the assumption they have hidden vulnerabilities
All those who want to give up their seat, can
Otherwise, it's a free for all first come first serve bums in seats

Makes sense to me!

Shall we start on waiting room etiquette now?

Yep, that sounds about right, Slithy.

I don't go in waiting rooms, Slithy, as they always smell of piss.

We could, however, debate those who need to piss in one, as opposed to those who want to (ie the drunk, the toilets are closed, versus the al fresco pisher).

The vast majority of public transport journeys are in London and the South East though, miss.

Just taking buses, there were around 5.2 billion bus passenger journeys in Great Britain (around 2/3 of all public transport journeys). 4.7 billion were in England, and half of the English journeys were in London.

I know living in London is a Mumsnet Cardinal Sin, but actually on this one, given the likelihood of journeying by bus (or other public transport - there are 126 local bus journeys per person per year in London, and 119 'other public transport journeys), the London/South East experience is pretty relevant.

I live in the south east. Having checked our local bus company website I can't find anything that says children of any age must give up their seats. However on the buses there is a space with fold up seats labelled as for wheelchairs or buggies and another smaller space labelled for buggies. Then the front 2 rows of seats (I think it's both) say they are for 'the elderly, disabled or those less able to stand'

I wouldn't expect anyone to give up their seats for my able bodied 9 and 7 year olds, although I've always found people offer when we are in London on the tube (about 3x per year).
But likewise I wouldn't expect my children to give to their seats for an able bodied adult. Elderly, pregnant or young child yes. If there aren't enough seats I stand and let the dc sit.

Of course the problem is that not all disabilities are visible but I hope someone who needed a seat would ask for one.

When they were smaller I would have sat one of them on my lap, assuming it wasn't full of shopping bags that is. (Our buses don't have much luggage space)

As for waiting rooms, I can't remember the last time I was in one that was so full there were no empty chairs.

We used to use the trains a lot though and for the benches at stations the same rules as a bus apply imo. Actually I'd be more likely to put Ds2 on my lap at a station as we would have the leg room. I always pre booked our seats for a train and no way would I be making them move out of them.

The vast majority of public transport journeys are in London and the South East though, miss.

I am quite surprised by that (not doubting its true, just surprised) because I thought around 8m lived in greater London which is less than 15% of the UK population.
Clearly people outside of London must rely on cars more than those in London do, probably because public transport is generally shit if you live outside of the capital. But what about the very many people who commute into London; they must be using some form of public transport nearer to home too. It's just odd.

This probably helps explain why proportionally less people use public transport outside of London

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16235349

The South East stats are pretty interesting and suggest people tend to drive to their commute of choice. I agree that public transport elsewhere is appalling - have tried to travel around enough of the country before I got a car, I still bear the scars!

I thought of this thread when my children told me yesterday how kind a lady with a booked seat on their train to Yorkshire was in moving to allow to friends to sit next to each other. I think there is a lot of kindness and consideration on trains.

[Now trying to retrieve my son's coat from lost property.. why did none of his siblings with him think to remind him to take his coat of the train?]

I do think children should be taught to respect their elders. It trains them to respect everyone, just like fairy stories prepare them to learn abstract concepts like justice and consequences.

Grown-ups have more responsibility, less energy, more life experience and more wisdom - even the daft ones are probably not quite as random in terms of making judgements as a six year old.

I was certainly taught to respect my elders. Which did not mean creeping around like an inferior being, it meant being polite, listening to grown ups rather than ignoring them, not interrupting but being polite if I wanted to ask something while my mother was talking to another adult. And giving up my seat if a grown up needed it, not least because they had paid for it and I hadn't.

All this used to be routine in this country, I don't know when people got so chippy and entitled on behalf of their precious children. They won't melt if they have to treat other people with respect!

Oh and not answering back. Which more children could do with learning. If you try to ask a child to stop doing something annoying e.g. the boys hanging around outside the supermarket who were teasing a younger child, they give you backchat. When they should be embarrassed about being caught out and worried you'll tell their Mum or the security guard or someone.

The world was a lot safer when I was little because respect for each other also meant adults would watch out for children, making it safer to play out, for example. We knew that we could ask any adult for help if someone fell in the stream and was soaking wet, just as any passing adult would tell us off if we were being naughty. This is not just nostalgia, it was the case. (The adult who helped when a kid fell in the stream - misjudged the rope swing - provided towels and a hot drink and phoned his Mum.)

And some of us continue to help and watch out for others people's children.

By offering them our seat on a crowded bus or

Train rathe than be injured for the sake of someone else's idea of respect

you are so unbelievably u. I would never ask my 3-year old to stand to let a perfectly fine adult to seat, nor would I take him on my lap. If an elderly/pregnant/disabled person needed a seat I would get up not make my son do it. It has nothing to do with respect for kids to stand up but adults bullying them into behaving.

I must just travel on tubes and buses with really nice people on them because my four year old gets offered a seat about 90% of the time and sometimes the person next to the person giving DD a seat offers me their seat! If there was just one seat I would stand and give it to my DD while she is so young and more likely to fall over randomly than me.

All this talk of manners and respect for elders sounds very old fashioned. Especially when we are talking about people over the age of 18, not an older person who actually needs a seat. Surely by the same reckoning 'gentlemen' should be leaping up to give 'a lady' their seat, or is it ok to be ageist but not sexist?

loving your response Kelly! And I have the same nice experience as you of the London underground.

Imagine that French, nice, kind, well mannered people on the tube giving up their seats for same little kids who, in the parallel universe of MN, should supposedly be getting up for them. It's all going to get very confusing on my next journey on public transport with DD

I sit the 3 year old on my knee if the bus /waiting room is packed, it's no hardship and he gets on the bus free. Unless you are travelling for hours or you have a disability yourself there's no reason for them to have their own seat

I prefer to sit a child on my knee if possible as it means one fewer person standing and cluttering up the aisle of the bus/metro and getting in everybody else's way.

French, seriously, you wouldn't put your child on your lap? Why on earth not?

YANBU. Drives me bonkers. Same applies at social functions etc.
I have sat my partner on my knee before now to give someone a seat.
It is about respect and consideration for others, both of which appear to be diminishing.

Yanbu. What is this nonsense about not being allowed to stand on Lothian buses? I'm on one as I type. Standing is absolutely the norm.

There are straps dangling from the ceiling.