to think parents should make room for adults by getting their kids to sit on their laps.

[Bouttimeforwine]

I have always done this, in waiting rooms, on buses, anywhere really. Even till they were too big really to be sitting on laps. Even now I will get them to sit on the floor at friends houses so that adults get the chairs. It's polite and the way I was brought up.

I often see children taking up a space, when it would be easy just to pop them on your knee for a short period of time. I know for a fact that some of these parents have no physical reason not to do this. They just think that their child has as much right as an adult to have that seat. True but it's not good manners is it?

AIBU?

I don't like the idea of respect your elders. Just because someone is older than me doesn't mean they are more entitled to my respect than someone younger than me. I will treat both with the same amount of respect until their actions do something to change that

Fantastic raising a child to be kind, can't argue with that.

Raising a child to believe they are 'less than' due to their age, I can't agree with.

So if my hypothetical 9 year old chooses to offer their seat to the healthy looking 25 year old bloke, fantastic. But would I force them or judge them for not doing so? No I would not.

So children are a waste of space OP?

Have you met any? If you got to know some you might realise that they are people too.

I would expect my children, who are 13 and 16, to offer their seats to anyone, particularly those less able to stand, given that this is what they have signed up to with TFL's code of conduct. And they do (when I am with them, anyway!). Most people refuse, but appreciate the offer - they are often complimented for their manners when they do this.

I think any adult (over 16/18) who is fit and able bodied, regardless of their age can take a seat, but should offer it up to the elderly, those who look as if they are about to expire, anyone wobbly on their pins and anyone with small children (ones that can go on a lap comfortably).

I would never ask a 9 year old (or indeed anyone else) to offer up their seat for me, nor would I expect it, as I am perfectly able to stand. I would think that a woman with two small children could perfectly easily take one on her lap and offer the seat to someone else if the bus/train is crowded and they are occupying three seats.

I don't particularly buy the idea of a tiny seven year old being swallowed up in a mass of people with no adult nearby. Most seven year olds in London are accompanied by an adult, who would/should be looking out for them.

Does that help, Slithy?

So just because you don't "buy" an idea it isn't ever going to happen. Right.

In other words you are accusing me of lying about how busy the tube gets at rush hour.

Presumably I am lying about getting shoved while I was pregnant also. I have already been called weak for that, after all.

God this is making me really upset and angry.

I NEVER take up more space than I need to. I ALWAYS make the children apologise if anyone looks at them funny. If you want us all to stand then we can do so. I NEVER asked for a seat while I was pregnant and declined it if I thought the person offering looked less than enthusiastic. I used to sit on the floor rather than ask. And yet I am being called selfish and disgusting.

I DO NOT take my children on public transort if at all possible and never without DH as I am so worried about taking up too much space, getting told off, getting shouted at and so on. I have anxiety around this issue.

And now I am beign accused of lying about how busy the tube gets on my fucking daily commute. What the fuck is it with people.

If you look at the link upthread you can see how crowded the trains get. Little ones WILL NOT be able to hold on if they are in the middle of that. There is nothing to hold on to for someone that height unless you are down the carriage and even then the poles are quite spaced out. Adults often wind up with nothing to hold onto in certain positions eg up against the door in the middle. That is why people offer childen seats. You don't want to offer a seat fine, someone else probably will. But don't accuse me of lying FGS.

It has happened to me that someone offered my 7yo a seat recently and a poster upthread said 2 people offered her 4yo a seat. That is the norm on the tube when it gets busy. Honest. Why the fuck would I want to lie about something like that?

The next time I am out on the tube I am going to be thinking about this and should my family all stand up if there are no seats, and sitting there worrying and getting in a state. I don't want to upset anyone or take up any room which is why I avoid it with the children. I don't want anyone getting angry with us. But who knows what the rules are, anythign could make someone angry, at least if we all stand then that's fine isn't it.

Who has accused you of lying about how busy the tube gets? I haven't! FFS, I live in central London, I know how busy it gets (and for that reason I wouldn't travel with my kids in the rush hour, unless it was completely unavoidable).

But what I said, you are with your seven year old, surely it's up to you to keep an eye on him/her? Stand him/her between your legs and hang onto them. It's not like s/he was travelling on their own. Or wait for a less crowded train - you might have to let a few go by, but one usually turns up.

And I don't think anyone has called you selfish and disgusting. I certainly haven't. Do what you want, really. Just accept that others will have differing views from you. You're sounding slightly unhinged and hysterical now, and I'm not quite sure why.

I don't travel on the rush hour train with my kids, I avoid going on public transport with them if at all possible.

However when I see someone with children who look like they could do with a seat I offer it, and that is fine. I do not second guess why they are on the tube at rush hour or shouldn't they be looking after their child better, I just think, that kid is going to get squished, here have a seat.

And this: "You're sounding slightly unhinged and hysterical now, and I'm not quite sure why."

That's because (as I have mentioned in about 4 or 5 previous posts including ones that you have just read as they were written to you and you have responded to them) I have anxiety around this issue which is why I avoid travelling with the DCs if at all possible. The fact that after me saying that you come out with that response indicates to me that you are taking the piss, quite frankly.

I think you probably need to step away from this thread now, Seven, for your wellbeing.

Oh FFS.

You have misquoted and made up the TFL terms of transport.
You have repeatedly said what other people must or must not do with zero leeway for different situations.
You have told someone who has said they have anxiety around an issue that they sound "unhinged"
And now you try to be all smug and get the mad woman off the thread so you can feel like you "won".

FGS there is nothing wrong with what I am doing. Given that it is invariably just me, and I'm the one offering my seat to other people for crying out loud.

FWIW my response of 15:04 was to clarify my position to Slithy, who asked me to do so.

I'm not the one who has been shrieking hysterically about people accusing her of lying when they haven't. I think you're overthinking the whole thing, to be honest. The worst people will think on the tube are "Oh that woman has three seats for her and her kids; surely one could go on her lap. Never mind, I'm only going five stops. Shall we have Chinese or Indian for dinner tonight?"

It's not all about you.

I am not sitting on the tube over 3 seats where are you even getting that from?

And the idea "It's not all about you" coming from someone who would decline to offer a seat to someone who needed it because they guessed their age was over some random arbitrary boundary, to someone who rarely travels with their kids and offers their seat to anyone they think looks like they could do with it, is ridiculous.

"I don't particularly buy the idea of a tiny seven year old being swallowed up in a mass of people with no adult nearby."

This. I have said it can happen. You have said "you don't buy" that. What is that if not saying I'm making it up? Or, if you are keen to continue with your digs at my mental health, you could say that I'm imagining it.

I didn't misquote (deliberately) the TFL terms of transport - I clarified later what it said in the code of conduct that older children sign up to. I assumed that this was because they were travelling free - it's the same with trains, I would think, you don't pay for a child under 5, but they are expected to sit on your lap if the train is busy.

I haven't said what people must or must not do - these were my views. Yours are clearly different, that's fine by me. People can do what they like, within reason! You want your kids to have seats on the tube? Fine, let them sit down. But there will still be some people who will think (but probably won't say) that they should either be standing or on your lap.

I'm sorry you have anxiety, but I don't think that's any excuse to call people liars.

And what I said was that they can get squashed in and have nothing to hold on to.

Although it is possible I am imagining that too obviously.
Of course the entire Northern Line could all be a mirage, for all I know.

So now I am being accused of never giving up my seat? I happily give up my seat to anyone who looks as if they need it more than me.

I don't buy the idea of a tiny seven year old with no adult nearby. The vast majority of seven year olds using public transport in London will be travelling with an adult - as you have said yourself, you were with yours. In which case it is up to the adult travelling with the child to keep an eye on them/keep hold of them. And I don't think it's that difficult, tbh.

"You want your kids to have seats on the tube? Fine, let them sit down. But there will still be some people who will think (but probably won't say) that they should either be standing or on your lap."

You are taking the piss, aren;t you.

I have told you that I do not take my children on public transport if at all possible as I have anxiety around it. I have also told you that we try to take up as little space as possible when we do. My perspective on this thread has been of someone who is commuting alone, reacting to others around them, and offering my seat where I think someone might need it. Why you want to paint me as someone who boshes merrily around on the tube all day with my children spread out all over the place is beyond me. It's almost as if you've read my posts and are deliberately trying to push buttons.

I haven't been talking about 7yo out by themselves as you well know. I have been talking about children on rammed rush hour tube trains, and how they can get squashed and have nothing to hold on to.

You are on the wind up I am sure.

Maybe some more quips about my state of mind would be nice right about now.

Yes of course a child wouldn't be on a tube alone

But if the mum and child are both standing the mum could well be struggling to hold on to a pole and silmultaneously hold on up her child. It would be very easy for them to be both unsteady or separated and of course I would look at that situation and see the child as part if the vulnerable group and offer my seat. Regardless of what anyone thinks about that child sitting because the mum then would have a choice of letting the dd sit or sit with the dd on her lap.

I wouldn't offer it to another perfectly stable adult who didn't appear to be struggling on principle of adults coming first.

On the rare occasions that I have to use public transport I will not be forcing my child to give up his seat for any fit able bodied adults. I will go out of my way to offer my seat to anybody who has priority needs otherwise my child will stay seated and safe and comfortable. I would rather be judged by the hoiked up pants brigade than risk my child's safety just to satisfy the judgy people who clearly care more about what others think than they do about their own children's safety and comfort.
Some people might think it is bad manners to let your child sit down when an adult (even a young healthy adult) doesn't have a seat but frankly I think those people are bonkers and gave their priorities wrong.

Also, even if my four year old was capable of holding on safely on a packed bus or train I wouldn't want her face squashed up against some strangers backside or somebody's genitals squashed against the back of her head.

People who feel able to stand should do so when there are no free seats and there are others standing. You can't tell by looking who might be in need of a seat. If the seat vacated stays empty and everyone looks embarrassed then sit down again. Easy. If you are not able to stand happily (for whatever reason) then stay seated.

Personally, I always had my little ones on my knee as I love a cuddle.

"I would rather be judged by the hoiked up pants brigade than risk my child's safety"

I think it is unlikely that an able bodied child, or indeed adult, would be injured by standing on a tube or a bus. If it really was that dangerous then standing would not be allowed at all. There are all sorts of valid reasons not to give up your seat but H and S, if you have no disability or illness, is not one of them.