to think parents should make room for adults by getting their kids to sit on their laps.

[Bouttimeforwine]

I have always done this, in waiting rooms, on buses, anywhere really. Even till they were too big really to be sitting on laps. Even now I will get them to sit on the floor at friends houses so that adults get the chairs. It's polite and the way I was brought up.

I often see children taking up a space, when it would be easy just to pop them on your knee for a short period of time. I know for a fact that some of these parents have no physical reason not to do this. They just think that their child has as much right as an adult to have that seat. True but it's not good manners is it?

AIBU?

Well I mean I#d always offer to a person with young child/ren but bigger children even if it was getting crowded.

I don't have a problem with small children on laps or sharing seats, or having their own seat if the bus isn't too busy, or the parent standing while the child has the seat. And I would consider a parent with a three year old entitled to use the priority seats, as I think most people would. But I think a 7 year old could stand and hang on quite safely,

Out of interest, what would you do if the bus was rammed, standing room only? Would you get on and all stand, or wait for the next bus?

Don't stop.

I don't see how watching small children get squashed between much larger adults, get separated from parents or trodden on out of principle is teaching them manners at all.

We have a duty to keep our kids safe and I couldn't give a cap about if she's free or reduced or not. I pay my fare. I pay my dds fare I never take a seat if it's busy but my kids will share mine and fuck anyone who thinks otherwise. They can have my seat I paid twice for!!

I'd sit my kids in the luggage area so they were up out the way, the same people get in the bus I get and that involves trollies (which run over my feet constantly) and a disabled lady with a stick, who every day struggled to get past the standing passengers and I have been bumped by them several times which isn't her fault but would hurt my children more if it was them down there. She may also not see my three yr old as she's trying hard to get out safely herself.

Or I'd take dd to the park nearby and get next one if there really was nowhere to put her

MrsS your views are out of step with some on this thread then.

People tend to give their seat for children under about 10 on the tube (depending on size of child) when it starts to get crowded. That is a sort of cultural thing on that transport system rather than a fixed rule.

Two points in my last post not linked, but read as if they are!

Well good for them, Zark. I won't be giving my seat up for an able bodied nine year old. I realise that this makes me the Hell Queen in your eyes, but so be it.

You see MrsS you have your own set of rules in your head which sound reasonable and I'm sure that if it was looking dangerous you would allow a 7yo (for eg) a seat.

However others on this thread have different views from you. So you are setting yourself against the wrong people here. I think? If you think young children should not have to stand etc then it's not me and Giles that you should be telling off, but the people who say they shouldn't.

But then you said that "Well TFL would beg to differ, Chippy. Their view is that if children are travelling free or at vastly reduced rates, they should indeed stand for a fare paying passenger" which is everyone aged 0-16 or possibly 18+ if in full time education.

For eg I wouldn't expect a 15yo girl to stand for a 19yo boy. It surprises me that others do expect that. But do they really or are they just posturing. I have no idea.

It can also be a high heels issue. If I am in heels I definitely feel like a need a seat more than a man or woman on a 30 minute tube ride in flat shoes although I certainly don't expect to be given a seat. My biggest issue on the tube is women with large tummies where I cannot quite work out if they are pregnant or not. I offered one a seat about a month ago I fear she was not pregnant yet all the fat was on the tummy area. I checked very carefully before I offered.

The other issue is if someone looks like they are getting on in age but they feel they are as fit as a fiddle and someone offers them a seat,.

However most of the time Londoners get it right and offer seats where needed.
My children are on a long train journey up North this morning however and have booked seats. That sort of journey it is probably fair enough to keep your booked seat unless someone virtually dying is leaning over your table.

One of my teenagers goes out of his way to offer others help all the time. Not sure where that comes from. He is Mr Charm. Not surprisingly the Head Master often chooses him for things like showing new parents round the school.

I do agree with the poster above that some parents these days do not seem to teach their children to be polite and do things for others. You can have that morality whether you are atheist or any of the religions and it stands you in good stead in life rather than putting yourself first all the time. I will often say to the children doing something you don't like or as their big brother says - be the better man - is a good principle.

No it doesn't make you a hell queen no-one has to give up their seat for anyone. Fortunately in that situation someone else would probably offer and all would be well, if the child wanted or needed a seat.

You approaching a 9yo on a rush hour tube and telling them to stand up, just on the principle of it, when there were seemingly fit and healthy adults around, that would strike me as very odd, and I imagine my reaction would not be unusual.

If a person needs a seat then the person to ask is the person in the priority seating (assuming they seem well) or a strong looking adult. They can refuse of course. I would think it a bit mean to single out a child on principle, on a rush hour tube train with everyone pushing and shoving.

If I was in my own I'd offer my seat to a small child or a pregnant woman etc

If I was just with dd1 and someone needed the seat we were sharing (or she had while I stood ) I'd ask her to stand up as that person would need seat more.

But I cannot believe that if I'm standing and dd2 (3) has my seat, that all you able people would sit there and watch a pregnant or disabled person enter the bus/train and refuse to budge because my 3 ur old should get up when she's vulnerable to.

What about all the others huh? The other perfectly healthy people who could and should stand? Where are there manners?

Is my toddler really the only person who should move?

Greengow if your heels give you trouble on your commute then carry them in a bag and wear flats. That is the norm. No-one offers nor expects seats because of shoe choice

On TFL they also now have "baby on board" badges which are great I think.

It's the inflexibility isn't it.

MrsS if you were fit and healthy and you saw a small 7yo being crushed between a bunch of adults who weren't aware there was anyone there as they can't see down from a distance, they just see a gap and push to try to close it. In that situation you're sitting there fit and healthy and strong and you have a child being crushed like that and probably looking pretty distressed.... You would think well nothing really, that the picture in front of you is fine.

And that is perfectly OK - I am sure many people feel like you including ones on this thread. But don't be surprised when others offer and don't imply that they shouldn't.

In fact a woman did offer DD her seat when we were out, DD is 7. DD2 (4) was sitting on her own, I was standing with DD (7).

What that woman did was fine. It was nice, even.
My declining the seat was also perfectly fine (although she didn't look very happy about it!).

People should offer / not offer according to need, surely, rather than adhering to a strict code of conduct.

the other interesting thing is that everyone has their own code of conduct in their head. Their own set of rules around what they deem polite or impolite. And no-one can ever know what set of rules the people around them have in their heads. So to ensure no-one gets upset or angry, all people must adhere to the most absolute strict set of rules. But that's not right is it. That would be a nightmare as some people's rules are utterly unreasonable.

Just a bit of care and courtesy and consideration should be the order of the day I think and in real life it is, usually, IME. Or at least people are consistent. On some journeys no-one offers seats to anyone irrespective, that is just a bad bit of journey. On other journeys where seats are offered people do it according to who they feel needs or wants a seat, really.

surely its as simple as if you see someone standing who looks like that may be struggling then offer them your seat if you are capable of doing so?

Surely if everyone just showed a little bit of consideration for others then we wouldn't have issues like this. Or issues of people not wanting to move for disabled people to use priority seating or anything like that.

I know, I live in a dream world, but wouldn't it be nice!

This is what I think too Sirzy but apparently it's all wrong.

I would put my kids on my lap if possible or ask them to give up a seat to an older person/pg woman/someone who just needed to sit down.

I was on my way to a sporting event when a teenager offered me her seat - bless her. I am clearly not ageing well.

I think making your child stand for an adult used to come for having respect for your elders and having good manners. However, as no-one gives a shit about anyone else but themselves and their precious offspring these days, "it's all about the kiddies, innit?"

MrsS - I'm going to try asking you as literally everyone else with your perspective has ignored me!

What ages do you define as an adult / child in your scenario?

And all things being equal, would you expect a 15 year old child to stand for a 19 year old adult under the heading of "respect your elders"?

What about a 25 year old adult, should they stand for a 35 year old adult? Because presumably the respect your elders concept applies to adults as well?

I would very much appreciate answers to these questions.

THe thread isn't about 15 year old children, slithy. Could be why nobody is answering your (irrelevant) question. It's about children small enough to sit on a parent's lap to create an extra seat for whoever might need it.
I don't think the concept of 'Respect your Elders' is that complicated to understand - it's a sign of the times (and not a good one) that you have to ask questions about 15 and 19 year olds to suggest the whole concept is ridiculous. As a child I just knew what it meant. Why don't you?

Once you start paying full fare (age 14 here) you are entitled to a seat. Then it's down to good manners as to whether or not you give up your seat.

The bus regulations here say that children travelling at a reduced rate do so providing they don't occupy a seat when an adult is standing.

If people choose not to keep the regulations sometimes the drivers will step in and tell parents to put toddlers on their laps or have 2 to a seat so that standing adults can sit.

I used to squash my 2 into one seat when they were small. They managed to survive to adulthood.

Paying the fair actually means you get to travel not a fueabteee of a seat

It's not irrelevant when people make sweeping statements like adults come before children.

Also, the thread has evolved since the OP.

And actually, people seem to be blurring the lines between "respect your elders" (which is a whole separate thread) and "keep children safe". So the question does need to be asked. And when blanket rules like the former are made, it makes sense to question it, as in my example of the young teenager vs the older teenager.

Not a single poster who subscribes to this blanket rule seems to make room for the fact that it should not be applied solely on the basis of age.

I know full well I give up my seat for the vulnerable regardless of their age, which may well include a child. It will also include the elderly (as opposed to all elders) by dint of the fact that being older (but just how old is up for question) makes them more vulnerable than me.

But why would I automatically give up my seat for an 'elder', all other things being equal? That is what is being implied with the whole respect your elders concept, and why I'm questioning it. And your post did not give an answer.

There are a few basic rules in life which make life easier for everyone which I try to teach the children.

Be kind.

Give.

Those principles usually help you decide what to do in a particular situation whether it is whether you should make your child lose its seat or if you should object when someone else has taken a seat.

I am fascinated that people don't all accept the respect for elders point. Are they not of English origin from a pushy culture? Or has English origin culture changed for some people in the UK.

I do not accept the respect your elders.

I respect everyone as an equal irrespective of their age, until they lose that respect.

Ime, this puts us on a level playing field. My respect for someone else does not deem them more worthy for something.

A circumstance however, such as a vulnerability, would certainly mean that some people are more worthy of a seat than me.

Someone who is older than me, does not meet that criteria.