to think parents should make room for adults by getting their kids to sit on their laps.

[Bouttimeforwine]

I have always done this, in waiting rooms, on buses, anywhere really. Even till they were too big really to be sitting on laps. Even now I will get them to sit on the floor at friends houses so that adults get the chairs. It's polite and the way I was brought up.

I often see children taking up a space, when it would be easy just to pop them on your knee for a short period of time. I know for a fact that some of these parents have no physical reason not to do this. They just think that their child has as much right as an adult to have that seat. True but it's not good manners is it?

AIBU?

It's been a while and quite a lot of pages since I was on this thread, and I come back to a whole load of "Won't someone think of the children!" nonsense. Nobody is suggesting endangering children, and you are ridiculous if you suggest otherwise.

Well what else would you call making a child stand on a packed tube train?

Its the very definition of endangerment

I guess people aren't thinking in terms of danger when they say that children should be standing.

Crickey - imagine people growing up believing that they are all equal!

Oh wait - we are all equal!

The DDs' 11-15 Oyster cards come with the instructions that they are to vacate their seat for a full fare paying passenger... I think this is fair (ho ho) enough. I'm with Edam on this - it's manners, and children either go on your lap, share a seat with a sibling or stand if they are capable of doing so (so probably from age 9 or so - both of mine were over 5 feet tall at 9, so no way could they share or go on a lap, but both perfectly capable of standing and hanging on).

That's all well and good Mrs s but a lot of people have other ideas.

Tbh I'm someone who thinks that if a child can sit on a lap they should, or 2 kids share one seat. I can accept though it is safer for a young child to sit than stand. I'd give my seat up to a parent carrying a small child.

I was on the tube in the rush hour recently and a mum had a toddler in a seat, while the buggy was unfolded, so taking up even more room. Why not put the baby in the unfolded buggy if they weren't on your lap?

I wouldn't make my child give up a seat on a bus for an adult unless it was an adult that I would stand up for myself, like someone elderly, pregnant, or clearly struggling.

This. I would never tell my daughter "sorry but you have to give up your seat for this able bodied and healthy adult simply because you were born after they were". My child has no less right to a seat than anyone else capable of standing. YABU.

Well TFL would beg to differ, Chippy. Their view is that if children are travelling free or at vastly reduced rates, they should indeed stand for a fare paying passenger, the elderly, or those more in need of a seat than them. It's a bit like insisting you can sit in business class on a flight, when you've only got an economy ticket - you haven't paid, therefore there is no entitlement.

Tfl say that in their terms for over 11 Mrs s, not for all children.

Tfl do not AFAIK say that for under age 11.

I do not know how old chippy,s child is.

Having said all that I would never expect a child over 11 to stand on the tube for me, that would feel really wrong and I would say no thank you unless pregnant or something.

Is there any chance of anyone reading the OP? It says nothing about standing, but about small enough children freeing up a seat (and it's not just about on transport wither) by sitting on a parent's lap. ALl these tiny, vulnerable four year olds on the tube could do that, surely?
Is there really anyone with a child small enough to sit on their lap (and excluding people with a medical condition which would make this impossible - I'm sure that isn't a massive group) who would see anyone standing, including older children, when they could simply put their child on their lap? Really? As Frank Turner puts it "When no one ever smiles or ever helps a stranger is it any fucking wonder our society's in danger of collapse?" (He blames by the way).

And I mean you are mis-representing TFL policy based on what you think it should say rather than what it says, and people might read that and take is as the rules when it isn't

yesterday I managed to find that bit about children over 11 which I posted on the thread I will have another look for children aged 0-10 though but I don't think they are expected to stand.

There are also situations like 2 children sharing a seat or a pregnant 16 yo or a 17yo with a babe in arms or a child with a parent who for some reason would prefer to stand and have their child in the seat, etc etc

Where is the flexibility.

I also think it is out of line to say that people must adhere to rules which I don't think actually exist. How are people supposed to adhere to the separate rules of every single other person they meet?

cardibach I would rather stand and have my child in the seat.

Others have more than one child so have them share, or have one on lap and one sitting.

The other day on one of my rare trips with the girls I stood with the 7yo and the 4yo had my seat. My thinking was I would prefer to stand rather than have the 4yo sit on me as a. my legs get sore and b. I could hang onto the 7 year old better while she was standing.

This apparently is "disgusting".

Irrespective of what the OP said, plenty of people on the thread have expressed very strong views including all children must stand and what's the problem with that and it's horribly rude otherwise etc etc etc

cardibach - Yes I do see parents sitting with very small children in their own seat next to them, whilst their are people standing up.

This did not used to happen. I still remember when I started to see this happening, and how I was shocked. Some people's ideas of good manners, have changed.

I also offer my seat when I see people who might need it including people with young children so not sure how I am coming out as the selfish one.

I rarely travel on public transport with the DCs as it freaks me out and I never asked for a seat when I was pg as I didn't want to put anyone out and I'm the "disgusting" one.

Honestly MN is nuts sometimes.

It is polite but it depends on the situation. For 2 years I took my daughter on a 40 minutes journey to London when she and I commuted in. She was 6/7. Every day the tube was packed to bursting with standing adults - mostly youngish men and women in suits on the way to work. She did not give her seat to those as for 2 years she would never have sat and they all got in closer to London. She and I did her reading and spellings on the 35 minute journey. I think that was reasonable. Obviously if someone pregnant or old was there she would give up her seat as would I.

If instead it is a short journey then it is really good for children to give up seats. People ask why. it is about learning to put yourself before others, that a bit of discomfort for the greater good is good, that children are not as important as some parents make them out to be. They are not Gods around whom the whole world revolves. I don't think you need to pay schools fees to obtain children who have these basic manners but I certainly think it is part of what I pay for. Manners as we know maketh the man.

However being polite myself I would never query what someone else chooses to do. For all we know the child taking up tyhe seat might be almost dead on its way back from a cancer hospital. I remember a story I was told about a man with 4 of his children who were very noisy and hanging from straps on a tube. Some gently mentioned they were lively. He said they had just come from a hospital in London where their mother was dying.

Mind you most of the people who don't give up seats when they should are just rude and no doubt they will burn in the fires of hell in penance in due course.

tfl conditions of carriage

I can't see in it anywhere that it says all children who go free must vacate their seats for adults if the train is crowded.

If anyone else can that would be great clarification.

I think making your child stand for an adult used to come for having respect for your elders and having good manners. However, as no-one gives a shit about anyone else but themselves and their precious offspring these days, "it's all about the kiddies, innit?" this has gone out of the window. It's the same with holding doors open for people - this seems to have gone by the wayside as well, just get yourself through and let it slam in the person behind's face.

It's in the "Young Person's Behaviour Code" for 11-15 year olds, Seven, although it doesn't expressly say "because you aren't paying for your ticket", it does say you are expected to give up your seat for others. Presumably there is no behaviour code for younger children as most 5-10 year olds will be travelling with a parent.

Right then and you are definitely right on this then, even though it goes against TFL conditions of Carriage which you quoted to back up your stance that all children who aren't paying must stand.

Can you really not think of a host of situations, like many on this thread, where that intractable stance is ridiculous.

Yes Mrs S I posted it earlier so I know and and just read the whole TFL Conditions of Carriage which I linked for you as well to check if what you were claiming was correct.

I admit I may have missed something so if you can find the bit where it says all children stand then I will apologise and follow the rules.

I will not, however, stop offering my seat to people who I think look like they could use it.

Oh just seen you say that although it doesn't say anything for 0-10 year olds specifically, you assume that they also must vacate their seats. Due to a combination of the fact that they haven't paid for their tickets, and because to remain seated in the presence of an over 18 (older if in full time education) would be rude.

Right.

I disagree. I think that there are many many situations where under 18s absolutely should not stand for over 18s. And like I say in real life in London fortunately people are a bit kinder and a bit more tolerant.

But it's not safe for small children to stand mrs

If my kids share a seat and I stand, the only adult standing as a result is me and I'm ok with that!!!

Given I paid full and child fare my kids an half of my seat each surely??

The are 7 and 3 btw.

Want my toddler standing being flung around do you? She's three ffs and on my lap or on a seat while i stand she and her sister take ONE seat regardless. How I arrange the one seat I plan to use is up to me surely?

Some adults don't pay on public transport though Giles, eg an 18 yo with 2yo, both travelling free.

Giles I also prefer to stand as having a child on my knee causes me pain and I reckon as long as it's one seat that's OK. A woman even offered my 7yo a seat as well which I declined. I would also offer a seat to a child under about 10 (depending on size!) if it was getting crowded and pushing was starting.

If people genuinely think my actions are rude and disgusting then I will stop I suppose. Like I say I don't go on public transport much with the kids anyway due to anxiety, around getting in the way of other people, funnily enough.