to think parents should make room for adults by getting their kids to sit on their laps.

[Bouttimeforwine]

I have always done this, in waiting rooms, on buses, anywhere really. Even till they were too big really to be sitting on laps. Even now I will get them to sit on the floor at friends houses so that adults get the chairs. It's polite and the way I was brought up.

I often see children taking up a space, when it would be easy just to pop them on your knee for a short period of time. I know for a fact that some of these parents have no physical reason not to do this. They just think that their child has as much right as an adult to have that seat. True but it's not good manners is it?

AIBU?

I haven't read the full thread, just the first fifty posts or so and JenniferJo sums up my opinion perfectly!

'No, they don't. Really they just don't. Not unless they've paid full fair and not child's rates and even then they shouldn't be sitting down if an elderly or infirm adult is standing. Some MNetters seem to be in the process of rearing a generation of entitled brats with no manners'

It must be very tiring going through life constantly looking for situations where you can be mortally offended or get into a debate with strangers about human rights. Rather than, you know, just going through life and trying to generally be nice.

I have seen situations where the adult is standing and the seat is shared by two children. As children go free on TFL up til 16, must they always stand?

See I do this alot. I make my kids shove over together so another small child or even two depending on size can share with them and I'll just stand by the seat so no one can fall off.

I didn't realise it was so wrong to include small children as part of the vulnerable group of people that seats should be given up to.

I didn't realise either that my child should only use these at sat on my lap as alone she's not entitled to one even though the adult who would take it (me) chose to give it up to them.

And what do I do with dd1 while dd2 is on my lap cos her sitting down would take two seats where as of I stand I can get both on one?

BoiledPiss if you get on a packed train and there's a 5yo and a 3yo sitting on a seat with it's parent standing in front of it do you really expect those children to stand for you? Really?

A lot of people on MN are parents I am really surprised by a lot of the posts on here.

I always offer my seat if I see someone who looks like they need it and that definitely includes small children. The sign on TFL even includes a parent holding a child in the priority seating sign FGS!

If I saw someone on the tube ignore all the fit healthy looking people and approach some little ones and tell them to stand I would say something I think. Honestly I really feel that it's just not on.

I am boggled that there are people going around getting genuinely angry about this. Including people who say they don't actually mind standing it's the principle. What on earth!

And the idea that a 14yo who doesn't stand for an 18yo is entitled with no manners. WTAF?
Honestly quite baffled by a lot of this.
I don't expect a 14yo to stand for me, why would I? If I got on with my 4yo it would be nice to be offered a seat but no apparently that's a time when actually a seat shouldn't be offered.

Pleased that in real life on my real actual commute into London which I've been doing in various forms for about 25 years people don't actually behave like that ie they aren't utterly selfish.

I'm surprised too tbh.

Never would I have thought that people honestly expect shall children to endanger themselves for the sake of an adult not wanting to stand.

If dd2 (3) had to stand she'd go frickin flying she's clumsy at the best of times and the idea that she should Only ever use a seat if she's on my lap or not at all is ridiculous.

She can have my seat.

So it's ok for a child to endanger themselves.
A adult to take up more room with a child on their lap out of principle than just have two kids share one seat and stand thenselves is also bonkers.

Iwill also continue to include small kids in the vulnerable group and give them my seat!!

And the idea that a 14yo who doesn't stand for an 18yo is entitled with no manners. WTAF?

And that seems to be where a lot of posters are being blinkered. They have decided that children giving up seats for adults should be a blanket unwritten rule rather than applying common sense, for example, seats being offered to people with priority needs (elderly, pregnant, disabled etc).

Children sitting on an adults lap will be at no more risk than sitting on a seat without a seatbelt.

Research suggests otherwise due to the difference between a child being flung into an object with only his own weight to contend with and a child being flung forward by his parents weight and being crushed from behind and squashed into the surface in front. Very small children are safest in their pushchairs or carry car seats. Older children are safest sitting down by themselves and holding the rail in front.
I don't know anything about London transport but children where I live are by no means free on buses or trains. It will cost me £400 a year for school travel for one child next year.

Miss, we are talking about very young children. 3/4 year olds don't sit in buses in car carry seats. They sit on the bus seat like everyone else. And the OP is about these children sitting on their parents lap, not making them stand up.

But all along Miss you have made it clear that you think your children should have a seat above anyone else. So there is no point to this really.

Others have been saying that children that age should stand though, for various reasons, many of which seem to revolve around concessionary fares.

But what difference does it make? Adult with child on lap = one seat.

Child on seat +adult standing = one seat.

Surely whatever combination doesn't matter?

Except you all seem to think that the child should sit on the adults lap and adult have the seat or the child alone on the seat while mum stands should get up for an another adult regardless of need.

One seat is one seat why can't the child sit alone on it I the mum is standing without being an entitled brat?

When it's safer for adult (the mum) to stand and kid sit down.

This is why I queried about standing room, giles. Whether people are concerned that if it's standing room only, and the child sits and the adult stands, that is taking up a standing space?

There has been no clarification as yet.

And no ones answers the question if I'm standing, my kids are sharing a seat and the three of us couldn't take less space up of we tried, if no one else moved, and an abled bodied adult capable of standing got on, should my young kids endanger themselves and stand above everyone else who is able bodies and healthy and bigger and stronger.

But all along Miss you have made it clear that you think your children should have a seat above anyone else. So there is no point to this really.

I have made it clear several times that I would vacate my child's or my own seat for somebody with priority needs, that is far from saying that my child should have a seat above everybody else.
FWIW: one if my children is a wheelchair user so would never be able to vacate a seat for anybody although I have encountered people on buses refusing to move so I can board a bus with the wheelchair (even when the bus isn't full). Fortunately I rarely catch the bus these days so I don't have to encounter people who think a pushchair has higher priority than a wheelchair or that an 18 year old has priority for a seat over my 10 year old because they happened to be born 8 years earlier.

Children under the age of 5 who travel free on tubes and busses or trains etc are not entitled to seats if there is an adult standing, that is a normal condition of carriage, so if they are small enough to sit on laps it is unlikely you have paid for a ticket, therefore you child has no right to sit in a seat when an adult is standing

What does a parent of 2 or 3 children under the age of 5yrs do then?
Are they all expected to pile up together on the parent's lap?

When I had 2 children under 5, we would squish up to take up 2 seats between 3 of us.

And if fares are in question, I permanantly have nearly £200 worth of adult and child tickets on me at all times. That surely, buys my kids half a frickin seat each if I choose to stand!!

"Children under the age of 5 who travel free on tubes and busses or trains etc are not entitled to seats if there is an adult standing, that is a normal condition of carriage, so if they are small enough to sit on laps it is unlikely you have paid for a ticket, therefore you child has no right to sit in a seat when an adult is standing"

Plus children travel free til 16 on TFL.

I have never seen a middle aged woman sitting with a 14yo on one knee and a 15 yo old the other

I do not believe for a minute that people are not entitled to a seat in London if they are under 16. I will check though.

What does a parent of 2 or 3 children under the age of 5yrs do then?
Are they all expected to pile up together on the parent's lap?

You are expected to grow 2 extra laps to accommodate them in case a healthy 18 year old needs to sit down

Ah here is the relevant part:

"Behaviour Code applicable to 11-15 and 16+ Oyster photocard holders
TfL’s Behaviour Code exists to ensure you travel safety and show respect for our passengers,
staff and property. You must follow it or you might lose your travel concession or Zip Oyster
photocard. Expected behaviours include, but are not limited to the following:
Act in a considerate and responsible manner:
? Act safely
? Cooperate with our staff and treat them and other passengers with respect
? Use language that does not cause offence to others
? Ensure that you are the only person that can hear your music
? Ensure you pick up all your litter
? Keep your feet off the seats
? Give up your seat for others "

Interesting.
Maybe people need to check the terms of carriage for their specific provider before attempting to make young children stand?

I just checked the conduct ruled for stagecoach and this was one of the rules
Have due regard at all times for the needs of our elderly, young and disabled customers and, in particular, vacate seats and spaces designed for the elderly and disabled when requested

It would seem that they consider the young to be a group who need consideration along with disabled customers and the elderly.

It would seem that they consider the young to be a group who need consideration along with disabled customers and the elderly

Who'd have thought huh...

Oh wait, we did

Thing is, I don't believe for a minute that any of the people on this thread when out and about with some young children would ensure that everyone leapt to their feet in order to allow some fit strong 20somethings to sit down!

I suspect the answer here is that there is a certain type of person who believes strongly that certain groups deserve priority, and which group that is changes over time so it always includes "me and mine"!!!

It would get ridiculous wouldn't it.

"You sit down"
"No you sit down you were here first"

"But your older"

x infinity.

I suspect the answer here is that there is a certain type of person who believes strongly that certain groups deserve priority, and which group that is changes over time so it always includes "me and mine"!!!

Or if they are on a bus they could follow the bus company's own conduct rules which in a stagecoach area would seem to put consideration of the young before fit healthy adults. You know nothing about how people adapt to different situations so do not jump to conclusions. I have travelled on buses with a child in a wheelchair so I am far more aware than most about putting people with priority needs first. Priority needs does not (IMO or stagecoach rules) extend to fit 20 something who simply fancies a sit down.

Miss I think you and seven have been agreeing throughout the thread?