To be offended at people using "stupid" and "Irish" interchangeably?

[Yogahoneybunny]

Just that really - I am Irish and have been living in Scotland for a few years, and it has happened repeatedly. I am never quite sure what to say as it is always a flippant casual remark (e.g. In work someone often says a certain system is a bit Irish) but I find it weird given I am obviously Irish. I have sometimes said back that maybe they should think about what they are saying, given that I am Irish myself, but I seem to be viewed as hyper-sensitive.
Any ideas of a good come-back as I am useless at these things?!

By my understanding, 'beyond the pale' doesn't refer specifically to the Pale in Ireland. There were other areas in other countries, which in English were referred to as 'pales'. The word 'pale' itself just means fence or fence-post.

The OED says:

c. beyond the pale (of) : outside or beyond the bounds (of). beyond the pale: outside the limits of acceptable behaviour; unacceptable or improper. Cf. senses 4a and 5a.
The theory that the origin of the phrase relates to any of several specific regions, such as the area of Ireland formerly called the Pale (see sense 4b) or the Pale of Settlement in Russia (see sense 4c), is not supported by the early historical evidence and is likely to be a later rationalization.

Mine is a Canadian version, so strictly it's an OCD not an OED, but I don't think it would make a difference. I don't know if they all have the origin of the word in brackets after the definition, but mine does. For the terms Paddy/paddy/paddy wagon, it says:
Paddy: (informal often offensive) an Irishman. [pet form of the Irish name Padraig (= Patrick)]
paddy: (Brit. informal) a rage; a fit of temper. [Paddy]
paddy wagon (N. Amer., Austral., & N.Z. slang) a police van for transporting prisoners or people who have been arrested. [Paddy]

I suspect that other definitions have come along in later years so that an offensive term can still be used without seeming quite as bad - I know that's happened with other words.
I've also heard the argument that the "Paddy" in paddy wagon would be referencing the mostly Irish police forces in places like NY and Boston, so it's meant to be affectionate not insulting.

Crosspost with Flipflops.

Why not go and get offended by something that is offensive in origin or intent instead?

(I am Irish)

Badtime, don't you recognise an obvious bowdlerisation when you see one?

Yes.

Don't you care about evidence?

By my understanding, 'beyond the pale' doesn't refer specifically to the Pale in Ireland.

Other 'Pales' don't fit the meaning of the phrase, though - e.g. the Pale of Settlement in Russia

squoosh bedhopping is happening right here where I live so it would be no different. If one of them got a dose of the clap it would be round them all in a week.
And they wouldn't know my business because I would be the wealthy reclusive old bat lady in the castle.

The OED also has other (some very early) examples relating to literal or metaphorical 'pale' or 'pales', several specifically not in Ireland. It means fence.

b. A limit, a boundary; a restriction; a defence, a safeguard. Freq. in to break (also leap) the pale : to go beyond accepted bounds; to transgress. Now rare and literary.

"?a1525 (1475) Play Sacrament 207 (MED), Myt we yt gete onys within our pales, I trowe we shuld sone affter putt yt in a preve.
c1540 (▸?a1400) Gest Historiale Destr. Troy 13874 The buerne..Past ouer the pale and the pale ythes.
1612 T. Taylor Αρχὴν Ἁπάντων: Comm. Epist. Paul to Titus ii. 12 This is the pale, and preseruatiue of pietie.
1671 F. Philipps Regale Necessarium 515 Nothing within the pale or verge of Reason, or the fancy or imagination of any.
1713 C. Johnson Successful Pyrate i. i. 3 He has leapt the Pale of Custom, and is a Royal Out-law.
1751 Johnson Rambler No. 163. ⁋14 When the pale of ceremony is broken.
1790 G. Colman Battle of Hexham i. 21 Grim death, breaking the pale of time, shall stride the field with slaughterous step.
1817 Scott Poet. Wks. (1841) 661 Italian license loves to leap the pale, We Britons have the fear of shame before us, And, if not wise in mirth, at least must be decorous.
1869 W. J. Courthope Ludibria Lunae iv. 135 Now hath Science broke the pale. Your Gods are fled! Ye planets, hail!
1907 J. Davidson Triumph of Mammon i. i. 11, I broke the pale Of Christendom, displeased because no God Regarded me when..I sought A message from on high."
(Italics wouldn't work for some reason).

Now, I understand that people have told you about the Irish meaning of 'beyond the pale' for a long time, and you believed it. But the evidence for it is lacking. It really is.

You know on 'QI' when something that 'everybody knows' is shown not to be the case? This is like that.

LizLimone:

According to Marriam Webster (a branch of the Encyclopedia Brittanica) the word Ghetto is defined as:

GHETTO:
1ghet·to noun ?ge-(?)t?\

: a part of a city in which members of a particular group or race live usually in poor conditions

1: a quarter of a city in which Jews were formerly required to live

2: a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure

3 : a situation that resembles a ghetto especially in conferring inferior status or limiting opportunity

Origin of GHETTO

Italian, from Venetian dialect ghèto island where Jews were forced to live, literally, foundry (located on the island), from ghetàr to cast, from Latin jactare to throw

I hope you can now see that your use of the word: 'ghettoize' to describe English people in Scotland not 'allowing' their children to speak in a local enough accent not to be bullied is not only incorrect but offensive (in a number of ways)?

By definition, you CANNOT 'ghettoize' yourself.

Well yes, er I know what a pale is, Badtime. Just like I know there are many backs of buses, but only one is relevant. The term beyond the Pale is directly linked to Cromwell's time in Ireland. Giving numerous definitions of the word pale doesn't obviate that specific usage. It's not a QI klaxon this time, sorry.

Janine, it would fit the Pale at Calais perfectly well, though. However, 'pale' means fence, and was used literally and figuratively to refer to a fence (and by extension, a boundary) in general as well as referring to specific enclaves.

I have never heard a non-Irish person say it. Only ever Irish people - and frequently!

Why are Irish jokes so stupid?

So the Scottish/English/people from Mars, can understand them.

Stupid statements do deserve a stupid response.

Now, I understand that people have told you about the Irish meaning of 'beyond the pale' for a long time, and you believed it. But the evidence for it is lacking. It really is.

You know on 'QI' when something that 'everybody knows' is shown not to be the case? This is like that.

So patronising.

However, it's a shame that all your 'very early' examples are about 200 years after the Pale in Ireland was established. The etymology of the phrase is rooted in English colonial practices of the 13th and 14th centuries. That other contexts were observed 200 years later by the compilers of the OED doesn't change that.

I've just been googling the Irish Pale and have come across Silken Thomas. Had forgotten all about him.

Could you please show me the evidence that the common modern usage of the phrase 'beyond the pale' relates to the Pale of Dublin?

Thanks, Janine.

'The phrase itself originated later than that. The first printed reference comes from 1657 in John Harington's lyric poem The History of Polindor and Flostella. In that work, the character Ortheris withdraws with his beloved to a country lodge for 'quiet, calm and ease', but they later venture further:

"Both Dove-like roved forth beyond the pale to planted Myrtle-walk". '

And I don't understand how it can be both related to Cromwell's time in Ireland and pre-15th century.

Thought 'pale' was used very early in relation to the Anglo-Norman administrative area in the east of Ireland. Well before the first OED C16th example.

I see it was used in these other areas, but it was possibly first used first in relation to Gaelic control vs Anglo-Norman control areas in Ireland.

Anglo-Norman originally, Cromwell later. In any event it is specifically about Ireland.

Evidence, please.

Why are you insisting on evidence, badtime? Not everything is written down, not everything that is written down survives, and in any case, the written word isn't incontrovertible proof of anything - we don't know the writers' intentions, tones, whether they were thinking of something else when they applied a certain phrase to a certain situation.

Well we won't see Squoosh for about a month now that shes fallen into the history wormhole.
Janine you got there before me.

Do you know what was an acceptable word for an ignorant person? The n word. Not just for black people but for any ignorant person. So do you use that word for someone who is ignorant?

Cromwell was a seperate sub discussion of the thread.