To be offended at people using "stupid" and "Irish" interchangeably?

[Yogahoneybunny]

Just that really - I am Irish and have been living in Scotland for a few years, and it has happened repeatedly. I am never quite sure what to say as it is always a flippant casual remark (e.g. In work someone often says a certain system is a bit Irish) but I find it weird given I am obviously Irish. I have sometimes said back that maybe they should think about what they are saying, given that I am Irish myself, but I seem to be viewed as hyper-sensitive.
Any ideas of a good come-back as I am useless at these things?!

I'm N.Irish and have lived in England for 14 years. I never heard the term 'throwing a paddy' until I came here and I do find it racist.

My grandparents are from Scotland and when I was a child we went to visit our relations at a big family gathering. There were English cousins whom we played nicely with and were all having a good time until the Scottish cousins turned up. They deemed us 'too stupid' to play with as 'all Irish people are stupid'. The adults decided to walk out into the garden just in time to see me giving my Scottish cousin and good kick in the knackers. Hopefully it cured him of being a racist arsehole. My parents were proud of me afterwards ;)

Not quite the same but I had to email and complain to one of the local free parenting magazines you get about an article calling tantrums 'paddies' they didn't care; tried to blame it on a freelance writer then said an Irish staff member thought it was ok therefore so should I
Was very tempted to threaten posting the whole emails on here to canvass opinion, wish I had now
Here you go;

Dear

Thanks for both of your recent emails.

After receiving your email I did a little research and found that the history behind the term ‘paddy’ is not a pretty one and that there is no denying that the word has been (and on occasions may still be) used in a derogatory way.

The piece that is the source of your complaint was provided by a PR company and their use of the pun ‘ipaddy’ was simply a concise a clever hook to catch the reader’s eye it was not used in relation to Irish people at all and there was no intention to offend. The piece was also picked up by the national press and TV.

I also sought the opinions of other Families Editors and these were mixed. Interestingly, one Families Editor, who is herself Irish, said that she could appreciate your response saying that “the use of ‘paddy’ for tantrum does play to racial stereotypes and as such can be offensive.” She goes on to say, however, that “personally, I would not take offence at it – but I understand why someone might.” So, it is clear that different people will have different perspectives and will respond accordingly.

I'm Irish and living in Scotland and have never heard anyone refer to something stupid as 'being a bit Irish'. Believe me it's certainly not the kind of thing I'd let pass without comment.

I disagree that 'beyond the pale' is a racist phrase though. Just because it has its origins in Ireland does not make it racist.

Come here to America, once a year we all pretend to be Irish.
On the other hand, I've more than a few times heard the word Irish used in the US as a euphemism for drunk.
Which is charming.

wiggles no it certainly wasn't their finest hour and I just checked and Beyond the Pale is still used in the talk guidelines. Funny enough it also says that racist posts will be deleted.

I still hear it too and I am in England. I find it mildly offensive too. Yanbu

Beyond the pale means unacceptable ie Irish people not under English rule in Ireland were unacceptable.
The Pale was an area of Dublin and parts of the surrounding counties ruled by England.

Substitute Irish for black, Chinese, Asian and tell me its not racist.

I'm well aware of the phrase's origin thanks very much.

I don't think it means 'unacceptable', I always thought beyond the pale was more of a warning - sort of 'there be dragons' sort of thing.

WilburIsSomePig Can I suggest you read my second post where I apologised.

Sorry I thought that you didn't.

I would never say get to the back of the bus to a black person. Its racist because of the origins.

You're seriously making a comparison between the phrase 'beyond the pale' and telling a black person to 'get to the back of the bus'?

Janine although I am old, I am nit that old but I am fairly sure dragons never roamed the Irish landscape . Perhaps they used to and then migrated to the Welsh Valleys.

"There be dragons" is a phrase used by medieval cartographers to signal dangerous areas.

Yes Squoosh. Segregation, belief that one was deserving and acceptable and one was not. Akin to the No dogs, no blacks, no Irish.

I know Janine but funny to think of a few poor dragons huddled together in the rain thinking that its a grand day.

StillFriggin I don't think segregation is at all correct to describe the period in which the Pale was in operation.

My dad frequently uses the phrase "It's a bit Irish".

He's Irish, living in Ireland though and at home it's a phrase used colloquially to describe long-standing bureaucratic or state peculiarities that are unfathomable to the normal man and usually to the benefit of the political elite. Things like the expenses system in Parliament in the UK for example - not sure how a normal British person would describe it colloquially. Not "it's a bit parliamentarian" anyway.

It's NEVER used to describe poor work.

I live in England and have an English husband. My MIL cannot understand why I don't think that Oliver Cromwell was the best thing to ever happen to Ireland...... Thankfully, my DH actually elected to study Irish history at A levels and is a little more educated as to my perspective.

I missed the "Beyond the Pale" thread. Not sure it's a good idea to reopen it if it was a bunfight. Given it originates from a shameful period in Anglo Irish and Russian-Jewish relations to put it mildly however, I am less concerned that it is common language and more that people don't understand and appreciate its origins. I don't honestly see how it's use could be construed as racist in any way though I am prepared to be educated on that point.

They built a fence around it to keep the Irish out.

No, the fence/dyke/boundary was to prevent raiding parties, not to keep the Irish out. There were always plenty of Irish people inside the Pale. It's simply not the case that the English rounded up all the Irish in the Pale counties and shifted them out that came later. In any case, there is lots of evidence of a high level of cultural fusion and interaction across Ireland in the Anglo-Norman period, particularly at elite levels. It's not a case of here=Irish and there=English.

Theres a long thread in site stuff back in January I am sure its still there. No I don't think I will rehash it, it took days for MNHQ to decide.
I have heard the Cromwell was the best thing comments too. I feel like handing out copies of the penal laws.

Well, Cromwell was the first republican in Ireland...

Yes, a lot of peasant Irish people were banished from the fertile land of the Pale to eke out a living in some god forsaken place like Offaly (apols Offaly!) and yes they were seen as a wild people to be conquered, a people to be feared, a people to keep out.

But I don’t think it’s helpful to compare this phrase to black people being told to ‘get to the back of the bus’. You just can’t compare 14th century Ireland to the American Southern states of the 20th century. Personally, the passage of time takes the sting out of these phrases. I see it as an interesting phrase with a fascinating history.

Kind of like with the Vikings, I’m sure in Waterford back in the day, having the Vikings come to town to a spot of raping and pillaging was a little less than pleasant but are do people still wince at the thought of Vikings? No, we see them as part of the tapestry of our island. We even have tourist attractions dedicated to the big brutes.

I hear it still, in London. My dad is Irish although I have never been offended. Until recently. Our nanny is Irish with a very strong rural accent. We live in a middle class suburb of London where you are hard pushed to find any ethnic minorities. People have asked me if our nanny is a gypsy, and some were openly shocked when I employed her (she was at the local nursery). I still occasionally her comments/see looks now and it winds me right up. She is brilliant with the kids, works her nuts off and is very easy to be around. I see some of the other mums moaning about how their slightly more middle class nannies won't help out or are always off sick etc and feel a bit smug. I see for the first time how offensive 'lighthearted' non-black or Asian racism can be and it's worse in some ways as it is so casual and 'fun.'

Beyond the Pale - definition of the meaning of the phrase
"Unacceptable; outside agreed standards of decency"

IF "Back of the Bus" had become a phrase in common usage [obviously originating from racial segregation] to mean
"Unacceptable: outside agreed standards of decency, racist or intolerant behaviour"

Example - "Wow, that was really Back of the Bus"

Genuine question - would you consider it to be racist to use a phrase based on/originating in racial history to describe an individual who had committed an act of racism ?