To be offended at people using "stupid" and "Irish" interchangeably?

[Yogahoneybunny]

Just that really - I am Irish and have been living in Scotland for a few years, and it has happened repeatedly. I am never quite sure what to say as it is always a flippant casual remark (e.g. In work someone often says a certain system is a bit Irish) but I find it weird given I am obviously Irish. I have sometimes said back that maybe they should think about what they are saying, given that I am Irish myself, but I seem to be viewed as hyper-sensitive.
Any ideas of a good come-back as I am useless at these things?!

[NigellasPeeler]

going back to the original question yes I heard all kinds of comments as a child in England about how Irish were either stupid, alcoholic or about to blow up a car.
it was fucking offensive

[SallyMcgally]

Oh I know you weren't saying it was ok, pang. Sorry if I sounded as if I thought you were. And you're right that pretty much everywhere can be barbaric, god knows.

[Pangurban]

Sally, I didn't say any of it was ok. I was just pointing out certain realities and indeed the illustration of a contradiction in the constitution. I believe this is because the issues cannot be dealt with properly in the constitution articles and this contradiction is there because of different referenda and legislation trying to deal within these parameters. I think women who can afford the expense (and hundreds of thousands have done this, albeit various reasons) will automatically choose the England route rather than go through the uphill battle of trying to access what is their right in Ireland in cases of suicidal issues. Certainly after this case. Was it a shot across the bows? I don't believe women in Northern Ireland get any assistance travelling to Britain for abortions, even though it is part of same country.

The other case was to illustrate that many (all) states can act in barbaric ways and in this there is a parallel. Indeed, in the Irish case they ostensibly got the woman to agree (probably worn down and bullied at this stage and without other choices). They sedated the woman in England and surgically removed the foetus without her consent and then proceeded to whisk the baby away to be adopted, even though she was not of British nationality or even permanently resident in England.

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/woman-in-abortion-case-tells-of-suicide-attempt-1.1901256

The legislation that exists doesn't even appear to have been followed. It will be interesting to read the report (if it's not a whitewash).

[SallyMcgally]

I don't think that case really is glasshouses, pang. It seems a hugely complex and unusual case, and the newspapers are only presenting it from one point of view. This may be absolutely right, and it may be as black and white and as appalling as they are presenting it, but it looks as if there are a lot of issues and layers there.

In Ireland women are treated like this rape victim day after day after day. And even if the constitution allows them to travel for their abortion, that doesn't make it OK. It's adding a whole extra dimension of expense, of guilt (making you travel is part of the punishment) and loneliness - you're far less likely to have someone going with you for support. It's barbaric.

[Pangurban]

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-25204276

From a bbc site.

[Pangurban]

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/03/forced-caesarian-italian-woman-suffering-animal

It is a different situation, but there is some similarity in the way the state can operate.

[Pangurban]

Ironically the Irish constitution protects women's rights to travel abroad for a procedure (abortion) in most cases not normally allowed in Ireland (except in the case of saving the life of the mother).

Whole other thread though.

[Pangurban]

For what it's worth, I don't think the English are stupid either. Maybe they just have some backward laws too.

[Pangurban]

That story is horrendous. Female immigrant pregnant from rape in country of origin (limited English). Deemed by 2 psychiatrists to be suicidal, obstetrician deemed foetus viable, force fed when threatening hunger strike and agreed to caesarian at 24 weeks.

Thing is, it is believed that Irish abortion rates are comparable with other european countries. It's just that Irish women mostly travel to England for abortions. It may be higher than thought, as lots probably give addresses of English friends or family. As the woman in the latest case was not Irish or British, she was not able to avail of the common travel area. I don't know if she was claiming asylum, but travelling out of Ireland would probably have affected this and the cost was probably prohibitive anyway.

It all goes back to the article on abortion put into the constitution in '83 (I think). A lot of people are in favour of this being repealed and the issue being dealt with through legislation. It will need a referendum though.

This is a whole other thread though. And every country probably has lots of crappy laws. Wasn't there a (not too dissimilar) case in England recently about an Italian woman who was bipolar (and not on meds) temporarily on a course/training in England, being forced by a court ruling to unwillingly undergo a caesarian and the baby being taken away by social services. I don't know if her family in Italy got custody of their daughter's baby. She wasn't even normally resident in England.

Glasshouses and stones. Sanctimonious, not much!

[WaywardOn3]

I don't think the Irish are stupid. I think their government are a bit backwards and rely far to much on religion to help them run their country.

Some Irish citizens are also a bit backwards but then I think anyone from any country who doesn't believe a woman has a right to abortion is backward thinking...

latest Irish anti abortion fiasco

[Pangurban]

Don't know if the late Norman admin and the plantaganets regarded themselves as simply English. How and ever.

[Pangurban]

Re: the pale.

This is a question from the 'Citizenship' test. Wonder what their source is?

www.theuktest.com/life-in-the-uk-test/4 (Question 4)

In 1200 the English ruled an area around Dublin, in , known as 'The Pale'

England
Scotland
Ireland
Wales

[TheSarcasticFringehead]

It's interesting to learn where, even possibly offensive phrases come from. My ancestors lived in the Pale - Russian Jews.

[noddingoff]

Today's Belfast Telegraph says that Northern Irish A level students have outperformed the rest of the UK. Again. 29.9% of A level entries earned A/A here compared with the UK average of 26%. 83.7% got A-C (7% higher than UK avaerge). Biology, chemistry, physics and maths are all in the top ten most popular subjects and are the subjects that Northern Irish children do best in - 38.8% got A*/A in chemistry, for example.
When that Test The Nation programme was on telly I think Northern Ireland always used to win, too.
SO THERE :-P
(and we have the whole of July+August off for summer holidays, cos our kids are smart enough not to let all the information fall out of their brains)

[IdkickJilliansAss]

My old boss described the entrance system to our office as 'A bit Irish' to someone who'd phoned for directions, we were all

[sweetnessandlite]

All families are different. We don't feel 'grand'. We just choose not to be offended at every little imagined slight.
It wastes energy when you could be getting on with your life.

[Flipflops7]

Ah sure aren't we grand laughing at ourselves.

Nah, sorry.

[sweetnessandlite]

You are right flipflops. The Irish and Welsh in my familly nearly all have a good sense of humour and can take a good old Irish or Welsh 'joke' without feeling 'offended'.
I guess I'm lucky in that respect. :)

[Flipflops7]

Maybe so, sweetnessandlite. Try that line on someone non-Irish or Welsh and see how well it goes down.

[sweetnessandlite]

I'm Irish and I haven't heard anything like that for years...I can still remember "Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman" jokes from the 90s though

I'm half Irish (father Irish) and I love a good '' Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman' joke!

People should stop being so precious and oversensitive.

My mother (Welsh) on the other hand, hasthe sheep shagger jokes thrown at her - mainly by us! She thinks its a laugh and it doesn't bother her one bit.

People should toughen up and stop being offended by every little thing.

[Flipflops7]

Squoosh, maybe, but it's different living in England, it was different for the people who came here from Ireland and different again for their English accented offspring (people speak more freely when they don't know you're Irish).

[squoosh]

And there are also many Irish people who know the origin of the phrase yet aren't offended by it and even use it themselves.

[Flipflops7]

Not really Marrog. Beyond the Pale is a real place where my ancestors came from. So forgive me for being offended still. I agree with you that not many people appreciate that it is a real place rather than a figure of speech.

[MarrogfromMars]

My point is that the rhyme's origins are racist but its meaning is inoffensive. So 'beyond the pale's origins may be racist but its literal meaning (outside the enclosure) isn't at all. Only historical knowledge can make it offensive.

[mumminio]

YANBU it's a ridiculous thing to say.

FWIW I heard a colleague refer to something as a "redheaded stepchild", clearly implying that it wasn't wanted. I spoke up to ask my colleague not to use such a phrase again and my face apparently turned bright redand the next day, my manager pulled me into his office to ask why I was offended, and even asked me whether I was a stepchild! He seemed to genuinely think I was overreacting.