to be sick of all the "tell someone" nonsense following RW's death?

[cailindana]

My fb feed is full of trite messages saying "if you're suffering, talk to someone, we care, we will look after you blah blah blah." Bullshit. When I was severely depressed I did tell people - my GP, my parents, my sisters, my friends everyone. For the most part I got indifference, annoyance, "what can I do?" "get over it" "you're worrying mum," etc. It was only because DH is a bloody saint who spent hours and hours with me that I didn't kill myself. If he hadn't been there then I wouldn't be still alive.
I'm sure if I had killed myself, my family would have done the whole "I don't know why she did it, we had no idea," fuckwittery when in fact they would be perfectly aware of why I'd done it, they just wouldn't think it was a good reason and they would blame me for being cowardly.
Equally everyone else I know who is/was severely depressed is pretty open about it, in fact, I find that depressed people mention their condition quite a lot. The response is generally fear, a sense of not knowing what to say or how to respond, indifference or even disgust.

IME people who are in the depths of depression don't tell others because they have already told them in the past and got nowhere. Implying that if you are in that state all you need to do is "reach out" and someone will be there and everything will get better it totally inaccurate, very few people I know have had that experience. Even the very good kind close friends I had when I had PND last year essentially ignored the illness. They were helpful, very very helpful on a practical level (visiting, sorting out the kids etc) but they never asked me how I was or how the medication was working, I always had to bring it up and then they would just nod and mutter something encouraging. I don't blame them at all for that and I am extremely grateful for the ways in which they did help. It was actually on MN that I got the best support. Here, I met people who had gone through the same thing, who acknowledged my awful thoughts and feelings without trying to change my mind (the whole, "Oh it's not that bad!" that only makes depression sufferers feel they must be mental if no one else can see what they see) and gave me reassurance that yes it was shit but it would pass. They were here whenever I needed them, unlike RL friends who are understandably busy with their own lives.

Depression is a complex illness that requires specialist help. Talking does help, definitely, but a depressed person can't save or cure themselves by just being more open and talking more. Having someone listen is a welcome temporary relief but it doesn't treat the illness any more than talking to a cancer patient would treat their illness.

Those who post this 'talk to someone' stuff but then belittle, abuse and ignore their own family and friends who are suffering are worthy of condemnation, I would wholeheartedly agree. Others may not be aware that people they know are suffering and will be totally unaware of the state of care available. People also feel unqualified to deal with depression and hope a nurse or doctor will be better placed to support someone.

To be honest there are NO absolutes. People who are severely depressed would find questions an absolute imposition at times. It takes effort and energy they do not have, to explain how they feel, especially as there are often no words to adequately express what they feel.

It is all so very personal and I think that a persons intentions tend to shine through. A genuine desire to help and support will be evident even if sometimes the delivery is not pitch perfect.

YANBU and I couldn't agree with you more, OP.

RedCar I have no doubt you are keen to help and your intentions are kind. But why do you need to say anything? Why not just ask the person what they need/want? And then do that?

why do you assume I don't ask him what I can do to help? I do.

why do I have to say anything? possibly because reminding him actually helps him. Possibly because that phrase (or rather the thought behind it) is a rock he clings to in his darkest moments. Possibly because those two "trite sayings" are the two things that my husband, together with his psychologist said that it was helpful for me to remind him of in his deepest darkest moments. Saying those things soothes him. Maybe not every single time, no. But more often than not. Heck even once when I had to call the crisis team in the weekend, they used the "weathering the storm" phrase too as it had been noted down by his main psychologist as being helpful. Of course it goes without saying that I don't just walk around the house like a parrot ONLY using that phrase, or using it every 5 minutes, of course I ask him what he needs or wants too. But as long as it is helpful to my husband I will continue to use it (and the weathering the storm phrase we use).

Sorry I haven't RTFT but I just wanted to say that the op has voiced exactly what I have been thinking the last couple of days. My family all just wanted me to 'cheer up', 'look on the bright side', 'don't dwell on things' and couldn't bear to see me sad - when allowing me that is exactly what would have helped instead of piling guilt on top of the other struggles I had. Yet I see my sister posting that thing about how RW didn't die of suicide, he died of depression.

Thank you for posting this, it's helped.

RedCar, we're actually saying the same things but are at cross purposes. It sounds like you support your DH very well.

Glad it's helped Jupiter. How are you doing?

How do you know that phrase works for your husband? Because he told you, and you listened. You won't know if it'll work for anyone else unless you ask and you listen to the answer. Therefore, until you actually listen to what works for that person you won't know. He has told you what works for him. It won't necessarily work for anyone else. That is the point I am trying to make.

and the point I am trying to make is you can't tell other people that it's better to say nothing than to say something that is 100% heartfelt and well-meaning but just might be construed by some as clunky.

There are as many risks involved with the "when in doubt say nothing" route as there are risks involved with being a bit clunky.

Mignonette, wrt asking questions, I mean that you should be prepared for the person to say "I don't want to talk," in which case you can say "is there anything practical I can do for you?" If they then reject that then all you can do is ask again and again later on and let them know you are there even if they can't engage with you at that moment. IME asking questions is the only way to engage.

SlowRedCar, I said that instead of just saying something out of the blue, ask questions instead. I didn't say stay silent.

OP, I agree with you and sorry to hear you have suffered in such a horrible way. But--I think any illness is very hard to empathise with unless you have suffered it yourself. From quite minor ailments to the major ones.

People just don't "get it" until it happens to them--THEN it's a big deal and very important.

I'm generalising, of course.

Yeah I know what you mean OP. I found proper support pretty hard to come by when I had PND.You have to have a bit of fight in you to get the help you need, and I guess sometimes the fight just isn't there :(

That's fine, clean, I don't expect people to understand. But then I don't go posting all over fb about things I don't understand. It's the implication that people who haven't a clue about depression know exactly how to help all those stupid people who do have it - just talk you silly thing! It's so easy!
Eh, no it's not. If it were that easy then it wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for asking, OP. As far as I'm concerned, I'm absolutely fine and I can name you a dozen brilliant things that are happening or in the pipeline here. My friends, who have no idea I'm considered ill, would agree with me and indeed frequently use the term "supermum".

If you asked DH, he'd say my anxiety is unacceptably high and my logic and reason very disordered. I think he is too casual, and unrealistic about life's dangers. He doesn't realise how close to death he is every day.

Are there things you would like to change Fatal?

Slowredcar thank you for your concern. I am ok. I am quite resigned to it all really. In some respects I am happier now than I have been for a long time, knowing my suffering has an end date.

pausingFlatly the hoops that have to be gone through are too much for me as regards claiming benefits. Last time I tried when I was not depressed, it took me 4 months.I don't have the strength to fight. I have no family or friends to help.

cailindana yes it is terrible to have had this illnesses lifelong. I would say out of 42 years, I have only had maybe 4 or 5 where I have not been depressed.probably 10 years being moderately depressed ( sectionable and suicidal can be moderately depressed apparently) where I still worked throughout. The rest depressed but not suicidal. So for me, although I know happiness is possible, it may be 10 years of poverty and suffering before I get there. That isn't worth it. Actually I'd describe it as a cruel and unusual punishment.

Yanbu

I'm lucky that I've had years of respite. In fact I think the way my brain works actually mirrors bipolar but on a much less extreme scale, in the sense that I can spend years feeling very "high" and happy, so happy I've cried on the bus because it was so nice being on a bus , then years of being very low and depressed. I don't know how I would handle it if I had that low feeling for such a long time, it must be awful. If there was anything that could turn things around for you BengalCat, what do you think it would be?

SlowRedCar, I said that instead of just saying something out of the blue, ask questions instead. I didn't say stay silent.

you did. upthread you said trite (your personal definition of trite) phrases are pointless, do nothing, so forget them, don’t use them.

“Quangle, what I'm saying is, don't say anything, even if it is thoughtful. Instead, ask questions and listen to the answers. Don't dismiss what the person tells you, even if it seems extreme or untrue. Listen. That's as much as you can do. Trite phrases about strength do nothing. They are pointless. So forget about them.”

While I will agree with you that listening is THE most important thing one can do, and far more important than supportive one liners, what if a depressed person is totally silent? Or what if all the time we have is a few moments in passing? We don’t always have the time with passing acquaintances to pull out a chair and spend 3 hours trying to create a meaningful dialogue that will help. And don’t forget that often depressive people are totally unresponsive. I have been there too, confronted with a very good friend who was very very depressed, but totally and utterly unresponsive. My trite, well meaning “well I know you don’t want to talk, but these are some things that help Mr Slow when he is in his pit, maybe they could help you too” did eventually bring her around. Maybe not because I was so intuitive and just said THE right thing she needed to hear, no, possibly just because she could see through everything that my intentions were right, even if my words weren’t, she could see I was TRYING to help. Not everyone in every situation has the time, inclination, experience, willingness or courage needed to take the time and emotional effort needed to say “Ok, I have all the time in the world, please tell me anything I can do to help”. In those situations I would still try to offer some supportive words, even if that may sound trite to some, than just to say nothing and go “ah, there’s my bus, I have to run”.

I have been thinking about this thread all day.

I don't have first hand experience of how people react when you tell them that you feel suicidal. But I do know how they react when you tell them that your mother committed suicide.

People judge. They judge and then they judge some more. I lie and say she died from brain hemorrhage because otherwise people say things like 'that's awful that your mother abandoned you, how could a mother do that to her children?'

Would anyone say that to me if she died in a car accident or had a heart attack? I doubt it. But being mentally ill is apparently a selfish indulgence that a mother is not allowed.

People are often not as compassionate in reality as they believe themselves to be on facebook.

Wow that is awful Legion. Sorry you lost your mother in such tragic circumstances.

Slowredcar thank you for your concern. I am ok. I am quite resigned to it all really. In some respects I am happier now than I have been for a long time, knowing my suffering has an end date.

naughty, if you have a spotty bengal (as your name suggests), hug him, hug him very very tight. My cats purring while I cuddle in to them is my main "rock" in my stormy moments. I wish you .... I hope you get what you are looking for. xxxx

cailindanaI have had the high feeling, but for days rather than years. I know what would significantly improve things for me - to have a fulfilling career. I accept due to the childhood abuse I will never have a relationship, never have kids and never have my own family. I may or may not manage friends and hobbies. But if I did something fulfilling during the day, this would be enough. I went back to university to retrain in the subject I have wanted to study my whole life. The happiest 3 years I have ever had. But the recession did not get better, and the property I was going to sell to fund the next 2.5 years halved in value. I have been desperately working and saving for the last 2 years to get the money to go back. I am 25% there, but that money will get sucked up very quickly now I am no longer working. I am considering laying my heart on the line and trying to raise the remaining money via crowdfunding. I have a month until school starts. If it doesn't work and I am too sick to work again, option (d) still stands (PTS)

Thanks cailindana Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant.

I'm glad you got the su
pport you needed in the end and I hope everyone who needs support gets what they are looking for.

I was abused as a child too. I think that fear, and that sense that no one was looking out for me, was and is a huge trigger for my depression. It's the feeling that no, actually, things won't be ok, you can be massively hurt and have no one to take care of you. It's so shit. I do wonder how different my life would be if I hadn't been abused.
Do you have a plan for option d?