to be sick of all the "tell someone" nonsense following RW's death?

[cailindana]

My fb feed is full of trite messages saying "if you're suffering, talk to someone, we care, we will look after you blah blah blah." Bullshit. When I was severely depressed I did tell people - my GP, my parents, my sisters, my friends everyone. For the most part I got indifference, annoyance, "what can I do?" "get over it" "you're worrying mum," etc. It was only because DH is a bloody saint who spent hours and hours with me that I didn't kill myself. If he hadn't been there then I wouldn't be still alive.
I'm sure if I had killed myself, my family would have done the whole "I don't know why she did it, we had no idea," fuckwittery when in fact they would be perfectly aware of why I'd done it, they just wouldn't think it was a good reason and they would blame me for being cowardly.
Equally everyone else I know who is/was severely depressed is pretty open about it, in fact, I find that depressed people mention their condition quite a lot. The response is generally fear, a sense of not knowing what to say or how to respond, indifference or even disgust.

IME people who are in the depths of depression don't tell others because they have already told them in the past and got nowhere. Implying that if you are in that state all you need to do is "reach out" and someone will be there and everything will get better it totally inaccurate, very few people I know have had that experience. Even the very good kind close friends I had when I had PND last year essentially ignored the illness. They were helpful, very very helpful on a practical level (visiting, sorting out the kids etc) but they never asked me how I was or how the medication was working, I always had to bring it up and then they would just nod and mutter something encouraging. I don't blame them at all for that and I am extremely grateful for the ways in which they did help. It was actually on MN that I got the best support. Here, I met people who had gone through the same thing, who acknowledged my awful thoughts and feelings without trying to change my mind (the whole, "Oh it's not that bad!" that only makes depression sufferers feel they must be mental if no one else can see what they see) and gave me reassurance that yes it was shit but it would pass. They were here whenever I needed them, unlike RL friends who are understandably busy with their own lives.

Depression is a complex illness that requires specialist help. Talking does help, definitely, but a depressed person can't save or cure themselves by just being more open and talking more. Having someone listen is a welcome temporary relief but it doesn't treat the illness any more than talking to a cancer patient would treat their illness.

Sicaq

I hope things are improving for you .

I want to talk to my friends and plan my passing. Use what little money I have left to visit and say goodbye. But they refuse to acknowledge that this is the best option for me. I don't even know if they would rather not know.

geez Naughty, I so want to respond to this, but I don't know how.

xxxxx

I am sorry you feel as you do.

Mum boots, Mrsbolden your reports are frightening. The NHS truly is broken if this what's going on. I hope the coroners dealing with the fatalities of which no doubt there are many, ask some questions about this neglectful service. When my db died after getting quack therapy for his depression the coroner said we needn't bother pursuing that really. Probably because it costs them too much money.

I suppose it is a chicken and egg situation. What came first his first beer or his first bout of depression.

I have a mother and sister who both drink. Both are severely depressed. Both threaten to kill themselves every 18 weeks to the day. They go through an 18 week cycle. 6 weeks of feeling positive followed by 6 weeks of deteriorating to the point of suicide attempt followed by 6 weeks in MH unit. That was my life growing up. Ds was a happy go lucky person before she started drinking.
I went non contact years ago because if I didnt I would have been dragged down with them.

naughty, could you try the "live on benefits" option for a bit?

You can still revert to (d) if you need to later, but it may give you a chance to at least regroup from the awful job, especially as you say your depression is situational as well as lifelong.

I know the benefits bit is quite hard at the moment, too.

MrsBolden speaks the awful truth and in our local trust, the situation she describes sounds like paradisaical working conditions. Ours does not even have space for dual diagnosis clients or other chronic, complex conditions. Service users present with symptoms further down the line and we are starting to see some of the old style symptoms of psychosis that modern neuroleptic treatment started to eliminate. Why? Because they are falling through the net.

The suicide rate is up among service users for the first time in years, the staff are ill, scared and demoralised. One of my former colleagues self harmed after they couldn't get one of their patients a - the guilt and anxiety overwhelmed them.

Staff are regularly in tears of frustration and anger. They rarely smile and laugh at work. We don't have fun any more. I only do a few bank shifts now to keep my registration going (I am on a career sabbatical) and I cannot stand to see them all like this. I have no doubt that many of my colleagues won't live much past their retirement age because their bodies and minds are being poisoned by their chronically high cortisol levels due to stress.

And the service users....I haven't prioritised our suffering over theirs. The situation they have to negotiate is horrendous, a travesty, an affront to human dignity, compassion and respect.

When a local authority uses anti jump nets on tall buildings as 'part' of its mental health care, you know you are fucked.

People don't take somebody else's depression seriously. Even after RW's death there are so many ignorant comments like -- he was so rich and famous, what did he have to be depressed about.

You make a very good point OP. Here is an excellent post by the bipolar blogger making a similar point.
purplepersuasion.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/on-seeking-help/

I have heard sooo many times, ' I hate talking to her...she is always depressed' or 'whenever I talk to (x) I always feel so depressed afterwards because she/he is always 'down'. I think that has a lot to do with the fact that 1) they feel that they can't 'help' through lack of knowledge/understanding, 2) they feel that if they spend time or talk with the person that somehow it is 'contagious and will effect THEIR mental well being, 3) They don't care enough for the sufferer enough to be arsed with them at their lowest (fair weather friend). Personally i feel that raising awareness and breaking down barriers is a good thing (because so many feel isolated with M.I.) But I also feel terribly sad R.W. had to pass away to highlight M.I. I personally feel that many will be feeling that if this is the 'public' face behind M.I. we all feel a lil more vulnerable now after the death of a man who appeared to be so happy for so many years .

I am in the same place as slowredcar

One can only speak from one's own knowledge and experience and from listening to others - and say things as thoughtfully as possible and try to connect. For some people that will work and for others it won't. For the most part though, people are trying to help. But they are not trained psychiatrists so I think it's a bit harsh to damn them for not "helping" when the awful thing about severe depression is that in the worst cases it does appear to be intractable. Robin Williams surely had no difficulties accessing the very best advice and care available and was presumably actively being treated - he had been treated several times in the past at any rate - sometimes it just doesn't work and that's not necessarily because someone's clunky friends didn't quite know how to phrase their words.

And someone upthread made a good point - perhaps it's different for men and women. Women on average do open up more - even if it doesn't help much it might help at the margins. Men just don't and maybe that's why they have the awful suicide rate that they have. Maybe that's not the only cause but one could hypothesise that that was one of the causes. Maybe one man somewhere might hear about RW and think - ok, I will go to the dr.

The point I am taking from the OP is that these posts are like reading: "Can't walk? I've got a car - ask me for a lift" from someone who passes hitchhikers disdainfully and refused you a lift last week when you asked because you've got legs.

I do not have depression (probably) but I do have PTSD (obviously for life, now) which generally manifests as moderate to severe anxiety but most recently as puerperal psychosis.

I did not know I was ill. I couldn't have asked for help because I didn't know I needed it. I was furious to be referred by my very astute midwife, because as far as I was concerned I neither needed nor deserved the doctor's time. I have only once felt ill; as far as I'm concerned this is all normal and the rest of you simply don't take things seriously enough.

I only thought I was ill when I was actually passing out multiple times a day. I have only been suicidal once, during a psychotic episode, and actually in a counselling session, when I went for a third-floor window which I knew was above a glass conservatory and would have been absolutely definitely fatal (if I hadn't missed and knocked myself out on the windowframe). In hospital the doctor was angry and my response to that was to decide never to burden anyone else with my feelings ever again.

I still feel that. I do not burden people with my feelings, even my HCPs and DH. If I slip, and tell them the minor things, they are horrified and I remember that I have to keep them to myself. The doctor wants me to access CBT but there are two main problems - (1) I found the taster completely wanky, patronising and infuriating and (2) you have to self-refer through IAPT as mentioned upthread. I'm currently about eleven weeks into an attempt to make that phone call, bearing in mind that I neither want nor deserve to be on the waiting list, and also that my unrelated hearing problems make even the pleasantest of phone calls extremely difficult. There's an eighteen-month waiting list once I've actually got through to speak to a person.

One of my well-meaning "just tell someone" friends was using his post to criticise those who don't seek help. It made me tired - getting on to the "getting help" track is objectively a good idea, but may take more mental resources than the ill person possesses, and even when accomplished may attract unwanted attention months or years before constructive help arrives. I would blame nobody for thinking "Actually, no, I'm keeping control of my life" and going it alone, or indeed choosing to end it.

Quangle, what I'm saying is, don't say anything, even if it is thoughtful. Instead, ask questions and listen to the answers. Don't dismiss what the person tells you, even if it seems extreme or untrue. Listen. That's as much as you can do. Trite phrases about strength do nothing. They are pointless. So forget about them.

Fatal - how are things going for you at the moment?

Sorry BengalCat, I missed your post. I was also depressed as a child - I clearly remember trying to figure out how to kill myself but not really coming up with anything that would work.

How is your day going?

YANBU, having suffered with depression of varying degree's a few times, people don't really care.

I also think far too many people have too much faith in MH professionals and drugs, they work for some not for all.

Each time I recovered from depression it was because life got better for me, not due to any MH professional or drug, neither ever helped me. I understand they do help others and I am pleased for them.

One can only speak from one's own knowledge and experience and from listening to others - and say things as thoughtfully as possible and try to connect. For some people that will work and for others it won't. For the most part though, people are trying to help. But they are not trained psychiatrists so I think it's a bit harsh to damn them for not "helping" when the awful thing about severe depression is that in the worst cases it does appear to be intractable. Robin Williams surely had no difficulties accessing the very best advice and care available and was presumably actively being treated - he had been treated several times in the past at any rate - sometimes it just doesn't work and that's not necessarily because someone's clunky friends didn't quite know how to phrase their words.

That Quangle, is definitely worth repeating.

Have I fucked up at times and said the wrong thing to a depressed person? Absolutely, yes.

Has the thing I said came from a good place with the best of intentions? Absolutely, yes.

Should I be judged harshly as a non-pro in the MH field for being a bit clunky with words? I would say absolutely not.

And what we also shouldn't forget, what I can say today that might help my husband during a bad episode, could send him over the edge the next time I say it. As what he wants me to say/do is not always consistent. He is not consistent in his depression, or in his needs during depressive episodes. How he himself treats others with depression is absolutely not how he wants to be treated himself. My father, my husband and one of best friends all suffer from depression, and what works with one (is judged as being helpful/positive/empathetic) simply isn't with the other.

Minefield ? Yes, definitely.

this is something my dh once wrote

"Introduction - Pull Yourself Together (PYST)

Recent events, have shown me that many people still do not understand depression and the effect it has on you and the people around you. So I decided to start this blog to enable me to tell people how I am feeling and how depression is / has affected my life. I am sure I am not unique and maybe if someone else reads this and gains a little better understanding it will help in some way.
One thing I want to state from the start is that from my earliest days my depression has always been about hurting myself, I have never physically hurt anyone else and I never will. This is not to say that I have not caused pain to my family and people around me through my actions but I have never ever thought about hurting anyone else deliberately.
Recently I caused pain to a member of my family and someone very close to them, I have so far been unable to explain my actions to both of them, however much I want to, I hope by writing this they will see I am not the monster that some seem to make me out to be. I would love to "Pull myself together" and get on with my life, it just doesn't work like that for me, as I will try and explain whilst writing this blog, I carry every mistake I have ever made with me but none of my successes.

I suffer from Depression

It seems strange posting this but I suppose like someone coming out, it gets to a point where maybe it’s better to tell people about you than keep things hidden.

The thing is I am not alone when I look into it I find it, 1 in 6 people will suffer from depression at some point in their life, it is most common in 25 to 44 year group, however it also affects the young, and anyone looking to work with children should make the effort to understand the illness so they do not join the number of people in this country whose only suggestion is “Pull yourself together”. There is plenty of information out there on the web, it just requires a little time and effort on google.

There is a certain stigma attached to any mental illness, it is very common in our society, and with the way society is developing, unemployment rising, pressure to have a good job, marriage breakdowns, the drive to be successful, and even exams etc. it is not difficult to believe that the number of people suffering even short periods will increase.

My son told me once that some of his friends who saw my Facebook page didn’t understand what was going on, why I posted some of the things I did, but, my reply was that it states on Facebook “Say what your thinking”, the trouble is that when you are depressed some of the things you are thinking may seem strange unless you know the person, and even then may be irrational.

Hence the reason for this blog, it may be irrational at times to some but it will hopefully enable me to explain how I got where I am now. In hospital they tell you to write it down and talk about it I found writing helps, but if you have no one to talk it out with then the benefit is short term, maybe someone will read this blog I don't know, maybe I will just convince myself that someone will, what ever helps. "

He has climbed out of the hole he was in then and didn't continue with the blog but still has down days.

You said depressed people are open about their illness and then in the next paragraph say they don't talk about it.

RedCar I have no doubt you are keen to help and your intentions are kind.

But why do you need to say anything?
Why not just ask the person what they need/want? And then do that?

And agree slowredcar it is a mine field and it is very difficult to know what is the right thing to say.

If you absolutely must say something, then say "I am here for you if you want to talk about it." But really the best thing to do is ask questions and then listen.

YANBU

For some people, it can be life-changing to talk about it and just have somebody to listen. However, if you've talked and talked and talked about it and nothing changes and you get the same platitudes, it can be counter-productive and lead to further withdrawal. I'm a Samaritan but I haven't leapt all over Facebook summoning people to discuss things - that kind of thing can be really pressurising.

I do agree that the destigmatisation of mental illness is a good thing though.

Quangle, what I'm saying is, don't say anything, even if it is thoughtful. Instead, ask questions and listen to the answers. Don't dismiss what the person tells you, even if it seems extreme or untrue. Listen. That's as much as you can do. Trite phrases about strength do nothing. They are pointless. So forget about them.

I am sorry cailindana but just because you find the "if it doesn't kill you it will make you stronger" phrase to be trite and pointless, doesn't mean that all depression sufferers feel the same. That phrase is literally a rock to my husband. And he clings to it. If I was pushed to say two things that do help my husband (apart from just listening) then it would be the above phrase and "we have been here before, we came out the other end then, we will come out the other end this time too". Or as we have shortened it down to after two decades "we just have to weather this storm like the others". Trite possibly, but definitely not pointless as they DO help.

How do you know that phrase works for your husband? Because he told you, and you listened. You won't know if it'll work for anyone else unless you ask and you listen to the answer. Therefore, until you actually listen to what works for that person you won't know. He has told you what works for him. It won't necessarily work for anyone else. That is the point I am trying to make.

SlowRedCar, you're right and you highlight a really important point - each person with depression is different. We can't assume what they want to hear or do but we can certainly listen and be there.