to be sick of all the "tell someone" nonsense following RW's death?

[cailindana]

My fb feed is full of trite messages saying "if you're suffering, talk to someone, we care, we will look after you blah blah blah." Bullshit. When I was severely depressed I did tell people - my GP, my parents, my sisters, my friends everyone. For the most part I got indifference, annoyance, "what can I do?" "get over it" "you're worrying mum," etc. It was only because DH is a bloody saint who spent hours and hours with me that I didn't kill myself. If he hadn't been there then I wouldn't be still alive.
I'm sure if I had killed myself, my family would have done the whole "I don't know why she did it, we had no idea," fuckwittery when in fact they would be perfectly aware of why I'd done it, they just wouldn't think it was a good reason and they would blame me for being cowardly.
Equally everyone else I know who is/was severely depressed is pretty open about it, in fact, I find that depressed people mention their condition quite a lot. The response is generally fear, a sense of not knowing what to say or how to respond, indifference or even disgust.

IME people who are in the depths of depression don't tell others because they have already told them in the past and got nowhere. Implying that if you are in that state all you need to do is "reach out" and someone will be there and everything will get better it totally inaccurate, very few people I know have had that experience. Even the very good kind close friends I had when I had PND last year essentially ignored the illness. They were helpful, very very helpful on a practical level (visiting, sorting out the kids etc) but they never asked me how I was or how the medication was working, I always had to bring it up and then they would just nod and mutter something encouraging. I don't blame them at all for that and I am extremely grateful for the ways in which they did help. It was actually on MN that I got the best support. Here, I met people who had gone through the same thing, who acknowledged my awful thoughts and feelings without trying to change my mind (the whole, "Oh it's not that bad!" that only makes depression sufferers feel they must be mental if no one else can see what they see) and gave me reassurance that yes it was shit but it would pass. They were here whenever I needed them, unlike RL friends who are understandably busy with their own lives.

Depression is a complex illness that requires specialist help. Talking does help, definitely, but a depressed person can't save or cure themselves by just being more open and talking more. Having someone listen is a welcome temporary relief but it doesn't treat the illness any more than talking to a cancer patient would treat their illness.

I had AND and PND with DS1, I still am struggling to get over the feelings of abandonment that those around me made me feel. My sons first year wss spent with me either screaming or sobbing.
No one listened to me, they still don't, the same people saying this garb.

When I started to show signs of depression when I was a teenager, DM, who is a psychiatric nurse would say to me "for fucks sake, it's bad enough to put up with all this shit at work, I don't need it at home too" !!
One of the many reasons we don't have a good relationship

Sometimes people wear a mask that is so far away from what they are actually feeling that it really is a complete shock to others when they end their life by suicide.
What started as a way of coping becomes all that there is and then there seems to be nothing of them left

I have experienced outwardly very together, very bright and cheerful people who actually present with an incredibly high suicide risk.

Showing anyone that it is okay to be still and that you will sit beside them is a good thing.
YABU

I'm not sure you've read the thread Ronald.

My parents were useless, but my GP was fantastic, as was my (at the time) boyfriend, who is now my DH. Men can be pretty useless about most things, but of the women I've known who've had depression, their partners have been their main support.

Obviously, having been depressed myself, I have more of a clue how to help friends. I do find it helps to explain that it's a genuine physical illness, that certain chemicals in your brain are reduced and that's what causes it, as a reaction to too much stress over too long a period of time. So to rest as your body is encouraging you to do, to do physical exercise to raise your dopamine levels and reduce stress, to give the brain time to heal. Meds help, but it takes a month for them to kick in and many people don't really understand that. Then to get out of the situation that was causing too much stress, or learn ways to manage it through CBT etc.

The problem is that it's invisible, so no one thinks it's an issue until the person suffering becomes really, really ill with it.

Ronald is right though- families will find it even harder to spot masked depression than health professionals who often miss it. There may be the rare case of families not knowing what the problem is or if there is indeed one. It is not always their fault, just as it is not the fault of the person who is unwell.

Publicity like this is especially helpful for people who themselves may not realise that they have depression. Many a time I have assessed somebody presenting with a completely different illness or concern, only to find they have moderate to severe depression- when they see the results and discuss them, the mask falls away and there it is.

SlowRedCar, how about "How are you?" as something to say to someone depressed.
And then give them space to talk if they want to, and don't press it if they don't. But keep being there as a friend.

PausingFlatly, I wasn’t really thinking of one on one, more along the lines of what to say in public or online, like the slating from some Jason Manford is getting for his public words on Robin Williams, which while some may find them clumsy or silly or trite, I have no doubt he meant them from his heart, and his intent was 100% good. Would he have been better to say nothing?

I don’t think so, I would rather have clumsy, non-perfect, non-professional, possibly trite dialogue about MH issues than no public dialogue at all.

Or for example another thing that struck me. Up thread someone mentioned a certain phrase “what doesn’t kill you will make you stronger”. That had been said to them while depressed and they didn’t find it helpful. On another thread a few weeks back some people suffering with depression said they found it a patronising, insulting and quite useless thing to say to someone who is deeply depressed. I can understand that, words that work for one won’t work for the next person. But the “what doesn’t kill you will make you stronger” phrase is one my husband clings to when he is in a bad way with depression. Do you see what I am getting at here? One person finds it a phrase/thought that gives them strength to cling on to, the next depressed person could find it obnoxious and insulting. It makes it very very difficult for those of us not suffering from depression to express well-meaning support publically.

I could list other things stated on this thread as being negative, but they really aren’t, or certainly, they don’t have to be, they could be coming from a good place. But they are being viewed as been patronizing/attention seeking/making the Robin Williams tragedy about them etc etc. Some of them might be, I obviously haven’t read every social media outlet. But I just think in general well-meaning people are getting a bit of slap down that they don’t necessarily deserve. And I don’t think slapping down clumsy or trite posts on the internet will do the “let’s get MH out there and talk about it” cause any good at all. Definitely not when some of these responses make someone like me think I would be safer keeping my mouth shut than run the risk of saying something trite or clumsy.

One on one I don’t really have an issue with talking with people with depression. As a child some adults in my life were bipolar, I have been with my husband, who suffers from bouts of bad depression, for 20 years and have a fair idea of what does and doesn’t help, how just being there to listen and support is probably the most I can do. No, the issue I have is more saying something on a public forum like MN or like Jason M attempted to do yesterday. It just seems to me to be so littered with potential pitfalls that personally I would rather write nothing on FB or Twitter or MN than get the slating Jason M is getting for at least trying to be sweet, kind and thoughtful.

I agree Mignonette: I was picked up after asking my GP to remove the huge (non-existent) cancer on my neck. I had no idea, I wasn't even what you'd really call unhappy, except for worrying about the "cancer". Only then I realised that for months, none of the terrible things I thought had happened were real. Still grateful to have met a GP who realised what was really wrong.

Oh it's all a pile of crap.

A family member posted that on fb. The same family member who told me "I have no sympathy for people who won't help themselves" and "for fucks sake, what's wrong with you" (repeatedly) when I wanted to throw myself under a bus when dd was a few weeks old, and I literally cried all day, everyday. (She's only four months, so this was v recent).

I have suffered with depression since I was a child, no one has ever done any of the things they ar spouting over fb.

What we're saying here SRC is to actually listen to what depressed people want, rather than doing something unhelpful and then saying "I was only trying to help" and getting annoyed when your efforts weren't successful. If you want to help someone ask them what they need and then listen to the answer. Depressed people on here are saying that those trite sayings on facebook are not helpful. Stropping and saying "Oh but I was only trying to help, I'll just say nothing then" just indicates that you're not really interested in what depressed people need, you just want to do what you think is right and if the depressed person doesn't like it, well they're just being negative and not recognising the good deed another person is trying to foist upon them.

I do think mignonette made a very good point that even if these messages are clumsy they are doing something to open up a dialogue, so in that sense it is positive.

But if people are genuinely trying to help actual real depressed people who might be on the edge, right now, and urgently need assistance, then telling them to "open up" or "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" on fb is just not good enough. It's lazy bandwagoning that takes advantage of a RW's death to join in some collective "aren't we all so caring" wankfest.

Helping someone with depression is hard. It involves work, as I'm sure you know. Trite messages on facebook are just insulting. They might open dialogue in some small way but they don't actually help anyone IMO.

SlowRedCar - that is absolutely not the message I am giving (I can't speak for anyone else). I already said, twice, that it didn't bother me that my friends didn't know what to say, I just appreciated their invaluable practical help and support. In terms of saying the wrong thing, I was referring to the things my family said - "Get over it," "you're worrying mum," "what do you have to be depressed about," etc. I'm sure you wouldn't say those things as they are just plain nasty.

cailindana, and my message honestly wasn't aimed at you either. More just ..... in general. It is difficult for me on a forum like this (or facebook, twitter etc if I had them) to say the right thing publicly without running the risk of what I say being trite or silly. I just don't think that the wider longterm interests of getting MH out there in the public domain with less stigma attached to them are served at all by the slapping down of so many (well meant) comments. (not you personally, in general)

And I do 100% get where you're coming from with what's the point telling people just to ask for help when the real help isn't there. That is true, MH care is massively underfunded. But if even one person can be helped by just speaking out, then it's not that bad a message really, it's just woefully simplistic. It's certainly better than the opposite which would be something along the lines of "our mental health care is so underfunded if you do feel suicidal just keep it to yourself".

Depression is horrible to live with and when it becomes very severe people and people are suicidal they need to be admitted to hospital and kept there. We just don't do that as a society.

It's a very difficult balance to achieve to say that people are legally allowed to choose not to live - which is a desired option for some after a protracted period of severe depression and to say it's treatable.

In a few cases depression is not liveable with.

I think that we should admit people to hospital more and seriously invest in good hospitals. It's not a priority for society as it's so expensive

Yanbu op.

Don't forget the old line 'if you threaten suicide you won't really do it, it's attention seeking'. Well no, often it's a cry for help.

Sometimes telling people how you feel can make things worse, as if you're met with annoyance/indifference, it reinforces the feeling that you've got noone.

cailindana

I have read the thread

Even the GP told me to "go for a walk."
That may sound trite, but exercise and getting outside can increase levels of serotonin in your body and reduce depression. It is obviously limited though.

I understand what you are saying, but I do think this is raising awareness about just how serious depression can be, and how you can't just pull yourself together.

I do agree with so much of your OP. The celebrity aspect is a bit annoying I find, everyone suddenly raising this because of RW, much as I might be fond of him and his work. But on the other hand I think any raising of awareness around this, especially about depression and MH, may do more good than harm.
There aren't enough people to listen though - when I phoned Cruse recently I was told there was a 6 mth waiting list. Even through the GP counseling may not always be immediately available - it should be.

I haven't read the full thread, sorry, but I had to reply after seeing this in your OP: everyone else I know who is/was severely depressed is pretty open about it

I have suffered from depression of varying severity on/off for years. There are very, very few people who know about this. Namely health care professionals, my husband, and I told my mum with my latest bout (who presumably told my dad). That's it.

You only know certain people are/were suffering because they told you, you have no idea how many people you know who are suffering but haven't told you.

Telling someone might not be all a depressed person has to do to get help, but if they don't tell anyone at all, they won't get the help they need. Even if these campaigns only encourage one person to open up, whether to friends/family (who can then encourage them to seek professional help) or they open up directly to a professional, that's one person who can get the help they need.

On a side note, I'm not sure if this is available everywhere, but I accessed talking therapy quickly and easily by a program called IAPS (increasing accessibility to psychological therapies). My counsellor says if I need to go back in the future (I will be moving soon into a different county, so will need to re refer myself) I can google IAPS and the name of the county, and self refer without needing to see a GP. When I was referred before, I was seen for an assessment within 2 weeks, and treatment commenced around 6 weeks after that. So it isn't always the case that you have to wait months and years for help. And even if you have an unsympathetic GP, there are ways of getting help that don't involve them.

Agree with wannabe in post 2 and cutteduppear. It's sad that people are using this man's death to validate themselves somehow when, in reality, they have no idea what it takes to put the time and effort into reaching out to people.

I'd much rather see a single FB post saying, "In Robin Williams' name, let's all, donate to x, y, z, they're the people who can and will help".

Not THIS, not this self-satisfied 'trying to be part of IT' nonsense.

Even the GP told me to "go for a walk."
That may sound trite, but exercise and getting outside can increase levels of serotonin in your body and reduce depression. It is obviously limited though.

Thing is though MostWicked, I had been depressed before so I knew I was well beyond that point and I needed more help than just exercise. Plus I had a non-sleeping newborn who wouldn't take a bottle and I was absolutely exhausted, so taking a walk wasn't high on my list of priorities, seeing as I had to sleep any free minute that I got. I told her I was really struggling and needed more help and still she did nothing.

Bloody hell, MsGee... I'm so sorry. :(

Actually I think there is a gender difference here: in my experience women are very open, to the extent that the clear majority of women I know in RL and online say they are or have been depressed.

Men, not so much. It is less common to hear a man talk about it. All the suicides I have known have been of middle-aged men.

Also wish the talk-about-it people would focus on sufferers of misunderstood psychotic illnesses as much as they do on depression, but I understand that at the moment it is RW depression that is the focus, so fair enough.

Sorry, just realised it's IAPT not IAPS!

The problem with being told things like 'go for a walk' is that that can be helpful is said at the right time, in the right way and to a person with the support necessary to go for a walk.

People learn a little about depression and then try to apply it often inappropriately.

If it is a family member or friend then that is hard enough to deal with but if it is a GP or other healthcare professional then it feels as though there is no one there. No one who cares or understands.

Telling a very depressed person to go for a walk is dreadful advice and is plopped out as a 'solution' very often.
Going for a walk is a million miles away from where that person is.

Over time and with help then a person can perhaps build up to a stage where they might be able to go for a walk
This might make them feel considerably worse before it makes them feel better.
Depression needs time and understanding. It certainly needs patience kindness and for friends and family to take the lead from the person with the illness. Each person's illness will be different.
Sometimes lying beside someone watching a boxset is better for them than going for a walk

I guess I'm not taking all the 'talk to someone' messages as being about depression generally, more about suicide specifically -- that if you are in crisis, don't give up, tell someone and try to get help.

My exP hung himself last year, I wish to god he had let someone know he was in such a bad way. Maybe it is guilt but I feel like I could have talked him out of it (we stayed friends after splitting).

I tried to kill myself years ago and luckily told someone who got me to hospital, so I'm still here. Then I had talk therapy, which changed my life.

I guess we are all bringing our personal biases to the question. For me, talking does change things. It doesn't mean everyone will be supportive, but if you never talk to anyone, it will never get better. You need to tell someone.

... and Mignonette and Betty and of course, Cailin. Very sorry. :(