To refuse to un-recline dd's plane seat...

[MerryMarigold]

Dh reckons I am. I reckon I am not.

So, long haul flight. Up at 3am to get to airport. 2 flights, 4 hour transit, bit of a hideous trip.

Anyways, on second flight, dd aged 5 FINALLY falls asleep. Thank God. Recline her seat so she is more comfortable and will hopefully sleep longer. 5 minutes later lady behind pokes my arm and asks me to put the chair up. Not very politely. I tell her my dd is asleep. She says she can't open her table with the chair reclined. (I have done this many times, so know it is entirely possible). I kneel on my chair and help her open table. Says she can't see TV screen. I adjust TV screen angle for her. She then proceeds to kick Dd's chair several times, whilst I get annoyed but decide to ignore.

10 mins later drinks come round and she speaks to the air steward in local language. He says to me. "Can I raise the seat?" and I tell him dd is sleeping. He says, "I'll do it gently" and just leans over me and does it. Thankfully she didn't wake up and managed to sleep in a contorted way for a lot longer.

I am usually the sort of person who doesn't stick up for myself and who doesn't like putting other people out (I didn't recline my own chair for the entire 9 hour flight as her large dh was behind me). I was very tired, I think that's why I was a bit arsey. I am also not being PFB. I have 3 children, but the others were not as tired and were fine.

Dh said it was her 'right' to have the seat up at least until the food is cleared up (this is probably at least 3 hours into the flight as it's a long flight). I said, "Says who?" Does her right to eat more comfortably trump my dd's right to sleep more comfortably?

So who is right?

So do airline seats partially recline? Was there a compromise option where the child's seat could have been a bit more upright so that both she and the lady behind were fairly comfortable?

Why does it have to be all or nothing? Surely it would have been far better if both parties (the OP and the lady behind) had compromised? If this wasn't possible, due to airline seat design, then ignore this - but surely they do have more than two positions?

no STDG, in my experience most are either upright or they are reclined, some do have partial recline but its so minimal its hardly worth mentioning as it's not noticeable unless you look at the seat back headrests at the exact right angle you can see one seat is like 5mm further back then the other. There is no middle road like you would have with a car. I know one airline where their in-flight guide (on that particular craft) states you can have partial recline, but I couldn't work it out and the passenger around me couldn't either, that's probably because the difference between the partial and the fully reclined is like 1cm or 5mm. The difference between upright and recline is so minimal it probably wouldn't allow much space to have a middle stand.

In business class (and first) you can have (depending on the airline and aircraft) have anything from totally upright to totally flat bed-like pod, with all the gradations in between. But in cattle-class it's just generally upright or recline.

But don't let this thread give you the impression that reclining is some massive movement backwards like you can achieve in any cheap family car, it's not at all. It's a few centimeters at most. Honestly, sometimes I couldn't even tell you if the seat in front of me is reclined or not. I only notice it was reclined when we come in to land and it goes upright.

Sometimes, these flights that are just domestic, short ones for you are part of a long-haul for others.

I don't get all this rage against reclining, even during meals. Have sat behind countless recliners long-haul, short domestic as have lived abroad for quite a few years of my life.

Just got back from the US and we had the final row. I can't even recall if the passengers in front reclined. Meh. They paid for the seat, it's theirs to do what they like with.

koala, what you are saying is etiquette versus regulations. Flying etiquette varies vastly from culture to culture. What is acceptable (etiquette wise) on a Pakistan Airlines flight is not acceptable (etiquette wise) on BA flight. What's normal etiquette on China Airlines isn't normal etiquette on Quantas. Rules and regs don't vary. Etiquette varies. There is no rule or reg on any airline I am aware of that says you can't recline before the meal is served. It can often take 3 hours to get a first meal (served and cleared away) on some LH flights. It's neither reasonable nor healthy nor airline policy to expect people not to recline for 3 hours.

As for the cabin crew and his/her actions, I have explained what I found reasonable and unreasonable. I have also explained what is within his or her remit as cabin crew, and just taking an arbitrary decision to move a sleeping passenger into an upright position to appease a bolshy passenger is outside that crew members remit and is grounds for complaint (should someone chose to do that). And that's the answer I got posting in a forum populated by flight and cabin from various airlines based on all continents.

I don't get all this rage against reclining, even during meals. Have sat behind countless recliners long-haul, short domestic as have lived abroad for quite a few years of my life.

me neither expat. One airline I regularly fly give you those cute 4 little stickers to put on the headrest of your seat

wake me for meals and drinks
wake me for meals only
wake me for the duty free trolley
don't wake me at all

I never recline my seat till after the meals has been cleared away. But the return leg of this journey always leaves at 1am ish local time. If the passenger in front of me has the "don't wake me at all" sticker on his/her seatback, I will tell the crew as they go to wake him not to bother as it's not THAT hard to eat a meal with a seat in front reclined.

The way some people are acting on this thread it's like cattle class is even worse, even more cramped than it actually is.

Sure! Of course we're talking about etiquette versus regulations. I have found international flying etiquette fairly consistent, though, precisely because people from all different cultures fly together (due to the nature of international travel). There are some pretty consistent things amongst polite passengers, like not putting your hand-luggage in the overhead lockers at the front when you're sitting at the back.

I guess the difference is that I don't see it as an 'arbitrary decision to appease a bolshy passenger'. I think it was a judgement call. The steward probably looked at the child, thought, oh, she's asleep anyway, and gently reclined her up. He probably didn't think the woman behind was being 'bolshy', just asking for a reasonable accommodation.

As for eating while a seat is fully reclined in front of you: it's bloody difficult, if you ask me. It doesn't give me the rage or anything if I have to do it; I just suck it up. But you have to kind of fork the food up off the tray, then bring it up and around the top of the seat sticking towards you, to get it in your mouth. It's a pain in the arse, but not that big a deal, no.

Given that the anti-recliners are being asked to upgrade to business and first, I guess it would be reasonable to suggest the long-haul pro-recliners put a hotel stop somewhere into their schedule?

Some are not pro or anti anything, just don't see the big deal either way. If it means so much to you, petition the airlines

Given that the anti-recliners are being asked to upgrade to business and first, I guess it would be reasonable to suggest the long-haul pro-recliners put a hotel stop somewhere into their schedule?

flipflops, lmfao, can you tell me how can i do a hotel stop in the middle of an ocean? Or over a war-torn area? Or over an unpopulated landmass or mountain range or desert? Or what about anywhere that the bloody plane doesn't stop, lol. It's not a bus where you just ring a wee bell and the captain drops the landing gear.

and you don't quite grasp the fact that, anti-recliners are demanding something they are not entitled to, more space, so they should upgrade if they need more space.

recliners are just doing what they are entitled to, that is, recline!

I can demand that you don't use your seat back tv as the glare keeps me awake, but it won't get me anywhere as you're perfectly entitled to use on-board amenities. If I want enough space that glare doesn't affect me, those first class pods are the biz kiddo!

Maybe it was a judgement call koala, and maybe it was the right one. Neither of us was there, neither of us know exactly why the cabin crew member out the seat into upright. We can only go on what's stated here.

But technically that doesn't alter the fact that he or she isn't allowed to do that unless there are health and safety reasons for doing so, and if there were H&S reasons that would have to have been noted in the pursers flight-log. In which case a complaint wouldn't be upheld. If there weren't then it would probably result in some kind of disciplinary actions for the crew member. Not that I think that's what's needed. No, I am just referring back to what you said a while back about my "complain to the airlines about the crew member" being quite ridiculous. Cabin crew members, although I don't envy their tough job, often break rules because they choose to appease bolshy passengers over meek ones, and they can and are disciplined for that IF the people complain.

MerryMarigold, and the other adamant recliners - what would you do if the person behind you asked you politely if you could unrecline your seat, and explained that they were either being made uncomfortable by the reclined seat or that they couldn't properly get their table down and this was making things difficult for them?

I don't get your comment, SlowRedCar. I was of course proposing that you break your long journey in a normal safe transhub in an international airport, with a Holiday Inn, Radisson etc. I can't imagine anyone choosing any of the locations you mention unless they are a war correspondent or suicidal.

SDT, that would depend on how much I wanted to be reclined or not.

Once DH was asked to in recline his seat and he rightfully refused (with the backing of the cabin crew) because he wanted to sleep. It was a reasonable hour to want to sleep going on the local time of the country we'd just left, food had been served and cleared, and the person behind who also had the option to recline if they wanted to doesn't have any more right to comfort than my DH.

On another occasion, I have put my seat upright when asked because I was still able to be comfortable in the upright position.

Apart from at meal times, I think the need to be comfortable is more important than the need to have a table down. And people only can't get a table down at all with the chair in front reclined if they are particularly big.

Slowred - really, you would think nohing of reclining on someone holding baby or toddler? Nice.

I would think nothing of reclining, no. I fly long-haul. The seats recline. You know what when you book a ticket unless it's, as someone pointed out, EasyJet, whose fleet has non-reclining seats.

The passengers may chose to recline. It is not their problem if I am so large I can't move when their seat is down, or I chose not to buy a seat for a baby or toddler, if I am tall and have long legs, etc.

I can recline, too, if I chose (the seats in the last row of some airlines also have room to recline! United ones, do!).

Flights to N.America, Flip, have no place to stop over the Atlantic Ocean. Ditto some flights to Caribbean islands. They go over water very quickly after takeoff.

I don't call up to 10 hours long-haul, expat. If they go at night everyone is reclining. Talking more about multi-leg, multi-continent.

Taking the meal thing out, I thought trays were down in the op.

On the long haul Uk to Aus flights I've been on lately, many people recline as soon as the seat belt sign goes off.

On, right, have to qualify long-haul to try to prove yourself right, of course.

10 hours is a short hop.

They don't go at night on the way over, either. They do that on the way back.

My mum went from Japan to San Fran once, it took over 10 hours and was over yet another pesky ocean with no place to stop. Not long-haul, though, no.

I'm not proving myself right, expat . I regard London-NY as a medium haul. 10 hours is borderline and I would expect people to sleep, reclined, for some of it but not straight away and not during mealtimes.

The Atlantic is an ocean sure enough but not a war zone so I took it SlowRedCar was also referring to much longer hauls crossing multiple time zones.

I didn't use go to refer to a specific departure point. Get off my case.

I suppose we have moved on from my OP. I would not recline myself before meal service (unless I was v ill or something), but I wouldn't object if someone did it to me.

In my case, I wasn't reclining myself I was reclining my sleeping 5yo. I think this does make a difference. Adults can (to a certain extent) control when they sleep and wait a few hours till after meal service. My 5yo is not there yet and as mentioned, we had already been travelling 8 hours since 3am.

OP, like others on the thread, I am curious about whether there was a third person in your row and what they were up to during this little drama. Can you tell us?

Whereas some would not expect anyone to keep a seat upright for an entire flight, nor care. Or have no idea where they are going or coming from, medium, long, etc. or care, none of their business, people paid for the seat and are free to recline it, as any passenger.

As far as expecting people to sleep for some of it, again, how can we know where the person is coming from or going? There is one poster I can think of on here who takes sleeping tablets and sleeps from wherever she stops en route straight through to Oz, taking no meals or getting up, seat reclined. She books a window seat and kips.

I have a close friend who travels all over the world for work. She can be in Phuket one day and then have to take a flight to Germany. She sleeps when and where she can, probably with the seat reclined. But as she flies so often, in business or first class so probably not offending those seething over a reclined seat.