To refuse to un-recline dd's plane seat...

[MerryMarigold]

Dh reckons I am. I reckon I am not.

So, long haul flight. Up at 3am to get to airport. 2 flights, 4 hour transit, bit of a hideous trip.

Anyways, on second flight, dd aged 5 FINALLY falls asleep. Thank God. Recline her seat so she is more comfortable and will hopefully sleep longer. 5 minutes later lady behind pokes my arm and asks me to put the chair up. Not very politely. I tell her my dd is asleep. She says she can't open her table with the chair reclined. (I have done this many times, so know it is entirely possible). I kneel on my chair and help her open table. Says she can't see TV screen. I adjust TV screen angle for her. She then proceeds to kick Dd's chair several times, whilst I get annoyed but decide to ignore.

10 mins later drinks come round and she speaks to the air steward in local language. He says to me. "Can I raise the seat?" and I tell him dd is sleeping. He says, "I'll do it gently" and just leans over me and does it. Thankfully she didn't wake up and managed to sleep in a contorted way for a lot longer.

I am usually the sort of person who doesn't stick up for myself and who doesn't like putting other people out (I didn't recline my own chair for the entire 9 hour flight as her large dh was behind me). I was very tired, I think that's why I was a bit arsey. I am also not being PFB. I have 3 children, but the others were not as tired and were fine.

Dh said it was her 'right' to have the seat up at least until the food is cleared up (this is probably at least 3 hours into the flight as it's a long flight). I said, "Says who?" Does her right to eat more comfortably trump my dd's right to sleep more comfortably?

So who is right?

Scone actually I am sorry, I think I might have misremembered re: whether you are British. But am not trying to put you on the spot to declare yourself either! Just ignore my comment to you earlier.

I'm American.

Koala thanks for the explanation! I guess this convention of staying unreclined until after the meal is just a non-US thing. At least on domestic flights. Again can't recall at all whether or when everyone reclined on international flights out from US airlines.

It's actually kind of charming to think of everyone sitting up nicely for the meal, almost elegant.

Gah I keep x-posting. Ha, I was right but again sorry, I wasn't intending to put you on the spot.

Keatsie, no worries - it's just my observation/understanding, since I've never been a flight attendant - I'm sure someone will be along soon to disagree!

And I said have had wankers recline on me even when I had a baby/child on my lap - but according to some (slowred) that's just tough shit.

Bambambini, you are free to pay for a seat for the baby on your lap. You don't have to hold the baby for the entire flight if you pay for a seat. You can't expect paying customers not to recline because you're too tight to buy a seat for a baby. And I have never had problems with a baby on a flight because the seat in front was reclined. Yes the space is limited, but we know that before we book. I have never and would never expect the rest of the flight to accommodate me and my baby. If I did find it tricky and specifically didn't want the seat in front of me reclined, then I would pre-book the seats and get my husband to sit in front of me. It's not exactly rocket-science. Your attitude says it all. And you have the audacity to call people who recline wankers, lol. Pot, kettle, black.... perhaps?

Easyjet seats do not recline either x

I guess this convention of staying unreclined until after the meal is just a non-US thing. At least on domestic flights. Again can't recall at all whether or when everyone reclined on international flights out from US airlines.

I fly mainly with Middle-Eastern, Asian and Euro airlines, and while it depends on the time of day the flight departs (night flights almost everyone reclines as soon as the seat-belts lights go off), most, but not all, do tend to wait until the first meal service has been served and cleared away before they recline. There is no requirement to do this though. I just think most people want to eat before they lie back to relax -plus if they do recline immediately and fall asleep, chances are 45 minutes later they get woken up to put it back upright as the meal service begins. The only requirement is your seat must be upright before the meal is served to the person in the seat behind you. I can't really say I have noticed any difference flying euro/asian/M.E airlines with American airlines with regards to "reclining etiquette".

koala regards the cabin crew member who adjusted the seat.... the reason I said to complain to the airline is, and to just check we're singing from the same hymn sheet here... the OPs child was reclined, there was no meal service, trays had been cleared away, so the child is allowed to recline. The passenger behind complained to the OP etc etc, eventually the passenger asked a crew member to intervene, the crew member did so by putting the child's seat into the upright position. Unless there are special circumstances which would affect the safety or the health of a passenger, they are not allowed to do this just to give an awkward passenger more space. I have just asked this question on a forum for cabin and flight crew and been given that answer. Some did qualify though that it did often happen "to keep the peace" but the passenger has the right to refuse (if there is no healthy or safety reason) and if their refusal was ignored the purser (head of cabin crew) should be called immediately to deal with it. It's no different really than me demanding the passenger next to me should put their overhead light off or switch the ICE off because it's annoying me.

Oh and one person responding to me said "they should complain, in our airline that would be good for 20,000 freebie airmiles" lol.

But, and this is just my own opinion, in the interest of fairness I wouldn't actually complain after the fact. I would have went to the purser on the flight as they are obliged to make a written record of any complaints they get in flight. And chances are the purser would have sorted it out there and then anyway, eliminating the need to complain afterwards. I have seen people being moved in situations like this, where technically someone like the OP is in the right, but there is another awkward passenger threatening to kick off. Won't be the first time I have seen cabin crew do a 10 seat in-flight-seat-shuffle because of minor things like this.

On domestic flights or indeed any flight under about 4-5 hours I would like people to sit unreclined. Discounting the really long haul fliers in this thread I agree with BringMeTea that the recliners sound massively entitled, so I think my snap judgments about them over the years have been largely accurate. They really aren't thinking about anyone else and they really are thinking "I am entitled to".

As for those people who book a window seat and pull the blind all the way down for the duration of the flight ...

On domestic flights or indeed any flight under about 4-5 hours I would like people to sit unreclined.

But to me, this ^^ is just as entitled...

You're expecting people to forego a small bit of extra comfort, for your benefit. What is that, if not entitled?

SlowRedCar, regarding this:

the OPs child was reclined, there was no meal service, trays had been cleared away, so the child is allowed to recline.

I don't think trays had been cleared away, because meal service hadn't even started. One of the OP's updates says

^a. Lady behind turned it into a food/ tray issue even though no food was being served and drinks had not even arrived
b. Dh said I should have waited till after the meal service to recline dd even though there was no sign of meal service when I originally reclined her.^

I take this to mean that the whole incident was before the meal service. Therefore, I assume the flight attendant put the child's seat up because he would have been asking her to put it up soon, anyway (for meal service).

Damn - I missed the return of the OP. I STILL want to know what the person sitting next to the sleeping dd was doing throughout the 'recline, ask, demo, kick, ask, steward-up-seat' exchange. And had they reclined their seat or not? It could be the clinching piece of info and is still uncovered territory on this thread.

Yes, there is a gradually emerging seat etiquette. I was on a long haul flight last month and, long before the lights went out, I leaned down to my bag under the seat in front to put something away or get something out (can't remember which) and the bloke in front slammed his seat back. God, it hurt and I must have made an automatic noise because he turned round and apologised. I always have a quick look round when I recline my seat.

When I get up for a walk or the washroom, I don't pull on the seat in front of me to help me up. I lean on the back of my own reclined or not. I hate having my seat pulled by the person behind me so do it it my way and the person in front is not annoyed.

I have been known to get up and tell a child behind me not to kick my seat. When you've tolerated it for a few hours, something breaks.....

koala well there's a lot of room here for assumption and guess work, and a lot of time if the meal-trollies weren't even out of the galley. On an a380 it can take 45-60 minutes (or more) from serving the first meal to serving the last meal. A kid in the last row to be served could have a good hours sleep between the trollies leaving the galley and their seats having to be upright for the meal. And that is allowed. The seats don't have to go into upright the minute the cart leaves the galley, just as the meal is being served.

Maybe the cabin crew member did put the seat into upright because their meal was 5 minutes from being served, that would be reasonable.

However we don't know that, the meal could have been an hour from being served (to that particular row) and maybe the cabin crew member just did it because the woman in the row behind appeared a harder nut to crack than the OP. That would be unreasonable.

If the meal service was not imminent then this is definitely grounds for complaint (should someone chose that route to go down). Cabin-crew aren't allowed to dictate recline unless it's on the grounds of health & safety.

Again though, any problems on board really should be reported to the purser at the time.

It's not for my benefit though, JapaneseMargaret, it's for everyone's benefit. A mid-haul flight, in daytime? Just stay upright. If you can sit in an office chair, how is a plane seat different? I am exempting long haul btw.

I see people getting on 2-hour flights, leaning back straight away, shutting the blind, snoozing happily in their bubble. Lovely for them but what about the claustrophobic person behind, trying to eat and drink? What about the kid next to them who won't see the Alps out of the window?

Okay, we don't know every detail of the timing of the meal service. However, the OP says 'drinks came round', which implies the actual drinks trolley. Additionally, we know that meals were still to be served.

I think it is poor flying etiquette to recline your seat while the initial drinks trolley is still coming round and before the meals trolley has been. It's one thing to try it on, but if the person behind you objects, I think the fair and polite thing to do is put the seat back up. Certainly not make it a big enough issue that it would need to be escalated to another member of staff.

Once the drinks and meals trolleys have been and gone, reclining is fine. That's the unwritten etiquette I've always seen followed.

YABU, especially for describing the fatness of the woman's DP.

A mid-haul flight, in daytime? Just stay upright. If you can sit in an office chair, how is a plane seat different? I am exempting long haul btw.

I class 6 hours as mid haul. So that's me flying from London to Dubai (roughtly). Right. You and I are on the same flight leaving London for Dubai at 10am. You expect me not to recline as after all I can sit 6 hours during the day upright in my office chair. Ok, I am kinda with you. However. How do you know my journey started in London at 7am? How do you know I am not a transit passenger in London who has just arrived in from an overnight, 10 hour flight from Houston to connect with 6 hour flight to Dubai? Or how do you know I didn't leave my home in Edinburgh at 10pm the night before to drive down to London to catch the Dubai flight?

And even if you mean shorthaul day time flights, the same thing still applies. I arrive in Dubai, shattered after a 10 hour flight from Houston to London, 2 hours transit in London, then a 6 and half hour flight to Dubai, where I catch my 1 hour flight to Oman after a 2hr transit in that airport. Now people might look at me like "what a bitch, reclining on such a short day time flight". But they don't know I have traveled through ?10 or so time zones and been awake for 36 hours, and spent 16-17hrs actual flight time, and around 7-8hours transit and in-check time.

That is why I think people on this thread can't be very experienced with airline travel in general, as they would realise that even on short haul flights you have very many passengers, who for them, that short haul flight is just a quarter or a tenth of their actual journey.

Who said woman's DP was fat? He was large. So are many athletes (mind gone blank). Tall and broad. Large.

However, the OP says 'drinks came round', which implies the actual drinks trolley.

Sorry koala but it doesn't. A drinks round does not imply drinks trolley and definitely not meal trolley. You have flown numerous times from Aus to UK, right? Then I am assuming you'll have had a good few flights that connect in the ME or the FarE? right? On those flights it is standard operating procedures (say an 11 hour flight from KL or BKK or SIN to a euro hub) for two meals to be served. However, they will come round with drinks 12 times or more. Maybe not even with the trolley, maybe just with a tray with orange juice, apple juice and water. Or they will come round with the drinks trolley for a drinks-only round, where the seats don't have to be upright. Drinks doesn't mean "seat upright" meals mean "seat upright".

So do airline seats partially recline? Was there a compromise option where the child's seat could have been a bit more upright so that both she and the lady behind were fairly comfortable?

Why does it have to be all or nothing? Surely it would have been far better if both parties (the OP and the lady behind) had compromised? If this wasn't possible, due to airline seat design, then ignore this - but surely they do have more than two positions?

I still don't understand why she wasn't sleeping with her head on your lap. Surely if you were worried about comfort that would be the best solution. This thread is bonkers.

SlowRedCar: The OP doesn't say a 'drinks round', it says 'ten minutes later, drinks came round'. This implies drinks trolley to me (as opposed to 'just the woman behind me was having a drink').

Anyway, it doesn't affect my main point, which is that the first meal had not yet been served. In my experience, you don't recline your seat until after the meal service (or after the first one, if there is more than one).

SDTG, yes, they recline in increments. It's not all-or-nothing.

...and honestly, I'd expect the OP to be pissed off if the steward deliberately poked her daughter awake and asked her to move her own seat, but he didn't! He just moved her seat himself, and she slept on obliviously. Talk about a storm in a teacup.