To refuse to un-recline dd's plane seat...

[MerryMarigold]

Dh reckons I am. I reckon I am not.

So, long haul flight. Up at 3am to get to airport. 2 flights, 4 hour transit, bit of a hideous trip.

Anyways, on second flight, dd aged 5 FINALLY falls asleep. Thank God. Recline her seat so she is more comfortable and will hopefully sleep longer. 5 minutes later lady behind pokes my arm and asks me to put the chair up. Not very politely. I tell her my dd is asleep. She says she can't open her table with the chair reclined. (I have done this many times, so know it is entirely possible). I kneel on my chair and help her open table. Says she can't see TV screen. I adjust TV screen angle for her. She then proceeds to kick Dd's chair several times, whilst I get annoyed but decide to ignore.

10 mins later drinks come round and she speaks to the air steward in local language. He says to me. "Can I raise the seat?" and I tell him dd is sleeping. He says, "I'll do it gently" and just leans over me and does it. Thankfully she didn't wake up and managed to sleep in a contorted way for a lot longer.

I am usually the sort of person who doesn't stick up for myself and who doesn't like putting other people out (I didn't recline my own chair for the entire 9 hour flight as her large dh was behind me). I was very tired, I think that's why I was a bit arsey. I am also not being PFB. I have 3 children, but the others were not as tired and were fine.

Dh said it was her 'right' to have the seat up at least until the food is cleared up (this is probably at least 3 hours into the flight as it's a long flight). I said, "Says who?" Does her right to eat more comfortably trump my dd's right to sleep more comfortably?

So who is right?

However, OP is massively unreasonable to recline another person who is sleeping peacefully and expressed no interest in being reclined. She inconvenienced the person behind totally unnecessarily.

And then was bloody cheeky and invasive to her into the bargain.

you must have a different OP to me. The OP's child was reclined. The passenger behind that child wanted the child's seat in the non-recline/upright position, because amongst other things the passenger behind couldn't get her tray out properly or see the seat-back tv properly. The OP leaned over to show her how to tilt the seat-back tv so it could be viewed. It wasn't the OP was BU, it was the passenger sat behind the OPs child. In flight drinks are not a reason for seating not to be reclined. That's why there is (generally) a drinks holder on the back of foldable tray so it can still be used to hold a drink while the tray is folded away.

OP, for what it's worth, I think you should complain to the airline about the cabin crew who un-reclined your daughter. I am quite sure that is not standard operating procedure. I understand why they did it, they viewed the woman behind as a bigger PITA than you, but it still doesn't make it right or following their owns procedures.

It would have been different if there had been special circumstances. We were on a longhaul flight to Bangkok and a passenger with heart trouble in the row in front of us needed the oxygen bottle almost constantly for about 3 hours of that flight. That involved one of the cabin crew standing in the aisle next to the man holding the oxygen bottle the whole time (and I suspect monitoring him too). Obviously everyone in the aisle seats on both sides of the aisle around the ill passenger had to remain upright to give the cabin crew a wee bit of space to maneuver.

And what age to children pay full fares.... 2yr old is it? They have as much right to recline as I do. Exactly.

And yes, it's my back that I always need to stretch too. I have long legs, I am quite tall, but it's always my back that needs that stretch, even if it is a small one. It does make a difference if I am travelling in economy. On a long haul, and medium depending on the flight time (medium as in 5-8 hours or so), then my children do find it more comfortable to snooze with the seat reclined. On short haul they suck it up really as it's exactly that, short.

And to SlowRedCar and Amandaclarke

X-post with Amanda, yes - upright sleeping on a long flight is bloody uncomfortable whether you're 4ft or 6ft.

Slow The OP's child was asleep with her seat upright. The OP then decided to recline her chair whilst she was asleep. The OP was then rude to the woman "helpfully" showing her that she was right and the woman was wrong.

So the child falls asleep in the upright position, mother decides to recline the seat to increase the chances that the child sleeps longer and better. That sounds pretty normal to me. The child's seat is paid for, and like every other reclinable seat on the plane it is allowed to be reclined except during meal times, takeoffs and landings. So nothing wrong yet.

passenger behind ask to set it back upright. Mother says no, as is her right, as per the airlines own rules. Right so far? No rudeness or breaking rules yet on the OPs part?

passenger behind then says.... but I can't use my tray. The OP leans over to show her how it can be used even when the seat infront is reclined, you just have to have it to the most "back" position, i.e not slid out towards your chest, or you if it's a collapsible through the middle seat back tray then you only put the half of it out when the seat in front is in recline. That's ok I assume, to show someone on an aircraft how the things work if they don't know that? I think that's polite, not rude.

passenger behind then says, but I can't see my tv screen (probably because the lighting was now wrong when the seat infront reclined). OP explains it tilts. I assume the passenger behind still didn't get it -or pretended she still couldn't see it- so OP leans over to show her? How is any of that rude?

To be honest, the OP is damn site more polite and helpful than I would have been under the same set of circumstances. If I had a sleeping child next to me I really couldn't be arsed leaning over and trying to help someone who I am pretty sure will just look for another reason why my child's seat should be upright so her entitled-ness can be catered to. She would have got one polite "no sorry my child's seat will remina reclined till she is awake" then the next thing she would have got from me would have been a very firm NO and a look that would sink battleships.

There was only one aggressive woman in this situation and she got her way after poking OP in the arm and demanding from all those around her that her entitledness mean't more than someone else's comfort. The chairs are mean't to be reclined for comfort and if I or a fellow passenger needed to use this feature I would have absolutely no problem with it and would never assume them or I rude, selfish or entitled.

It has given my husband a good laugh as his mouth dropped open when I told him of some of the YABU replies to the OP - we are sitting here shaking our heads

I am also intrigued to know the leg length of some of the responders, I am a 33 inside leg and DH about 35 and both agree that recliners don't have any impact on leg room as the chair starts reclining from bum/waist height so are bemused about how a recliner would affect any leg room of the person behind - it has never affected either of us.

The poster who was yanking on the chair of a recliner, kicking the person's chair and getting up repeatedly for the hell of it is incredibly rude, but interestingly that's been overlooked.

No, people think that someone who had paid for their seat should not be inconvenienced unnecessarily. If the OP wanted more room for her child, maybe she should have paid for first class.

Indigo18, doh! The OP didn't want more room for her child. All the OP wanted, was what she was entitled to, to recline the seats they paid for, at times during the flight when they are allowed to be reclined. It was the passenger behind the sleeping child who wanted more (than her airline-allocated) room, so if anyone should pay for first or business, it should be the passenger behind with the sense of entitlement.

Which part of 'it was not during meal time and her table wasn't already down' are some idiots struggling to understand?

The OP gives the impression that it was during the meal time as her DH says that "it was her 'right' to have the seat up at least until the food is cleared up (this is probably at least 3 hours into the flight as it's a long flight)" She also asks why the woman's right to eat should trump her child's right to sleep.

AmandaC, this post is having much the same reaction in our household too. Pure and utter amazement at the YABU replies from both my H and myself. I really do think many people responding have little or no experience of longhaul flying or what the norms, etiquettes and rules are. I fly a lot, but my husband even more so than me and we're both open-mouthed at the silliness on this thread.

I am 5 foot 2 and almost always recline for the majority of the flight, as I have a bad back. I never moan at lack of legroom, as these wee pins of mine don't need much in the way of space. If I am flying alone and get given an exit row or bulkhead seat I will always offer to swap with longer legged passengers. I have no issues with passengers in front of me reclining, as long as the trays have been collected after the meal service.

My husband is 6 foot 6 with a 35 inch inside leg (don't dare call us Little & Large, lol) and almost never reclines as he finds it uncomfortable. He has no issues with passengers infront of him reclining. And states reclining passengers infront of him impact his upper body somewhat but his lower body not at all. He does find getting up for the loo tricky when seat infront is reclined, but that would be tricky for Nadia Cominecci even!

One time I refrained from reclining on a longhaul flight to India was when an obese man was sat behind me and was EVER so polite to say at boarding that should I want to recline just to let him know in advance and he would go stand up at the galley to allow me to recline (as no way could I recline without the seat-back seriously getting into his chest and stomach area). But since that man took the initiative to ...well admit he might be the one needing the rules bent around him, I remained upright to help him out. It was also ever so sweet that his wife next to him, who was reclined almost all of the flight, offered to swap a while with me so I could stretch my back. I don't think I would have been half as accommodating if the obese man had just confronted me with a sense of entitlement telling me I wasn't allowed to recline. In fact, I know I wouldn't have been. I find it very difficult to ever turn down polite requests that are presented nicely, even when I want to, I just can't. But I excel at knocking arrogant entitled arses down a peg or two.

Look the stewardess was impartial.she was there we were not.She told the OP that 'golden child' had to put the seat upright.
She didn't wake up and continued to sleep for a long time in the ujpright position.So how on earth would it have been reasonable to keep the seat reclined?
I'm sick of people blathering on a bout rights.It is a question of courtesy which the Op seems to be sorely lacking in.

..and the bit about kicking the back of little madams seat is a load of crap.There is no way an adult can swing their leg back enough to boot a reclined chair above seat level.More likely her knees were getting squashed against the seat.

The OP gives the impression that it was during the meal time as ...

she did in her OP yes, then a few posts later she clarified by saying it wasn't at a meal time, it was at a drinks service time.

There could be some confusion here if it was the post meal coffee/tea round time. If the meal trays haven't been cleared yet then all seats should still be in (remain in) the upright position.

If this was just one of the many bog-standard drinks rounds, then the OP is well within her rights (and well within the airlines own guidelines) to have her daughter's seat in recline.

Actually I don't think the OP gives that impression at all whatever5.

It suggests, before anything, that the lady behind sad she wanted the chair up so she could put her tray down. It is then noted in a further para that the drinks trolley came down.

The OP has clarified many times ghost she would not have done it, nor refused to reposition the chair, had it been a meal service.

And queenofthemountain you are being pedantic. Of course the woman couldn't 'kick' the back of the seat. She sure as hell can bang/shove it with her knees/fists in an equally obnoxious manner.

queenofthemountain, you're living in cloud-cuckoo land, and probably quite an inexperienced flyer, if you think that every member of every cabin crew on all the various global airlines, are all impartial onlookers who will always take the side of reason and fairness. Some cabin crews stand up to bolshy passengers, some don't AT ALL, and cultural differences play a VERY big role in this.

I have been on flights from a particular airline that is known to have the most culturally diverse cabin (and flight) crews, and watched a stewardess with a nationality known a bit for their subservience to men of their own race/nationality, especially if those men are also.... let's say, appear to be quite well to do..... I watched that stewardess get hassled and totally disrespected by this male passenger, so she then proceeded to get a male Australian steward who was working more down towards the front of the plane to come up back to deal with the difficult passenger and all was well. When the same arse of a man was arsey with another stewardess later in in the flight (demanding a drink after the seatbelt lights went on for landing) she just caved into his perceived superiority and gave it to him. Despite that being a safety risk for all people on board.

And as for an adult not being able to kick the back of a seat in recline I can assure you it's possible as I have sat across the aisle from a child who kept hanging over the back of the seat and throwing bits of food, and cheeky wee comments at the couple sat behind him, doing their best to mind their own business. Eventually he fell asleep, or at least tried to, and I laughed up my sleeve when I saw the quite elderly, otherwise very respectable looking couple taking sheer delight in trying to disturb his sleep/period of rest when he finally piped down, by kicking and kneeing the back of his seat, it was made even funnier by the fact the elderly couple had to slide down their seat somewhat so they could knee/kick the child's seatback. There is enough legroom when seats in front are reclined. It's the seat back that reclines, not the seat sitting bit.

There is enough legroom when seats in front are reclined.

Not for everyone; much depends on the configuration of each person's body.

I just remembered something else I saw on a long haul flight, and it made me laugh out loud and half the plane looked at me. Man sat across the aisle from me, minding his own business, trying to do some work on his lap top. Obnoxious kid kept kicking the back of his seat, even as the man tried to eat or drink. Mum was useless and wouldn't intervene with her precious git of a child, and ended up just putting her eye mask on and ear plugs in and left horror child to it as she went for a snooze. Horror child gets a drink from the cabin crew. Man infront plays about with his laptop screen, and I couldn't understand why....as by this point his laptop was out. Then I got it, he was using his laptop screen as a mirror. And horror child gets his glass of orange juice and just as he is about to place it on his tray, laptop man leans quickly forward, then with all his weight threw himself backwards into the seat back and horror child got soaked in orange juice, threw a total wobbler, and poor mum was forced to remove her eye mask and earplugs and actually parent her child. And like I say, it brightened up an otherwise dull flight. LOL.

Not for everyone; much depends on the configuration of each person's body

ok, then let me state it in a fuller way for the pedants amongst us.

If one has a body that is configured in such a way that they can't sit in a plane seat while the seat in front of them is reclined, during times where recline is allowed, then the onus is on the person with the weirdly unusually configured body to purchase a more expensive seat in business or first class where there is a LOT more legroom. The onus is never on the person in front to be expected not to use services or comfort-aids provided to them in the purchase price of their ticket.

'She sure as hell can bang/shove it with her knees/fists in an equally obnoxious manner'

yeah because she has no room to do anything but!!

However all that is irrelevant.The only relevant point is

The girl was not disturbed by having her seat upright, so ther was no reason for it to be reclined.That is the point

Wow this thread got massive.

There's etiquette, and then there's what you can get away with. People pick the one they prefer at the time.

Actually I don't think the OP gives that impression at all whatever5.

She does gives that impression in her OP as she says that her DH thinks the seats should be up until food is cleared up. She also asks whether the woman's right to eat comfortably was more important than her child's right to sleep comfortably.

no it's NOT! The point is, if you demand/need/want more space than you have paid for and are entitled to in economy, then you should buy first or business class .... or, like the rest of us, grin and bear it, and accept that ticket prices (lucklily!) are kept down due to getting as many people as possible in a tight space, and accept that each person's onboard space and facilities are theirs to do what they chose with.

Believe me, I do my best to get extra leg room when I can; luckily for me, when I have not been able to I have generally managed to sit behind people who are considerate.

She also asks whether the woman's right to eat comfortably was more important than her child's right to sleep comfortably.

I will eat hourly almost on a longhaul flight. That doesn't mean that meal times are hourly. They are only twice per flight. I just eat out of boredom. I have no right to expect the seat in front of me to remain upright to allow me to eat. I can only expect the seat to be upright till the trays are cleared away after official meal times. It can be a pain trying to peel and hand slice/tear fruit on half of a tray when the seat in front is reclined, but such are the joys of cattle class. Besides...working out how to do all these fiddly fruity things in such limited space actually helps pass time.

Believe me, I do my best to get extra leg room when I can; luckily for me, when I have not been able to I have generally managed to sit behind people who are considerate.

as a short arse with very short legs, I stated upthread if I am allocated a seat in an exit row or a bulkhead row I will always offer to swap with any long-legged/tall passengers who want to. Extra legroom does little (if anything) for me.

And I don't mind people like you WANTING extra legroom, we all WANT things we can't have.

My issue arises with some people on this thread acting like it is their RIGHT to demand that a seat in front is not reclined to accommodate their long legs or different body configuration,

why don't they at least be honest and say the extra space is needed to accomodate their larger than normal ego?

Sorry, but you were BU. A long haul flight with kids can make you unreasonable though.

I've done it many times, Australia and back with babies, toddlers and school aged children, its the blight of being an immigrant (along with people hating you for stealing jobs/husbands etc)

But really you shouldn't recline during drinks/dinner service, takeoff and landing.

Its just one of those things.

Turned out okay.

It is vexing when you finally get a child off to sleep to have to disturb them. Thankfully this didn't happen.

I was on a 2nd leg to Oz, the long 17 hour one and the turbulence light came on and I had to disturb my 7 month old out of her skycot and then there wasn't even turbulence.

She didn't get back to sleep!

Same child who is now 5 recently developed a fear of toilets/ceiling fans and went 17 hours Dubai to Melbourne without weeing!!! WTF! Nothing made her go in there. She went all feral and folded in half!

Next time I'm going on my own and may not come back