Quick Advice DD2 refusing to go on holiday...

[fun1nthesun]

We need to leave now! dd2 has decided she isn't going (12 years old). Leaving her with relatives/friends isn't an option. She has form for sudden refusals, and in fact we lost £££ the last time she demanded to do expensive lessons and then changed her mind after we had given the money.

Any suggestions? Our holiday is ruined

And long term yes that works ( but certainly not all the time)

The op wanted advice on getting her DS out the foot now.
Perhaps she needed to hear five pages of " just get her in the sodding car"?

I think Delphinium has a point and you are in charge not them. ooh it's difficult to comment when you don't know the child.

I think my mum used to drag me to primary school in 1st year. I hated it.

mine were compliant mainly but I do remember my dd and ds refusing to get out the car to have lunch at my dms at different times.

www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/related-conditions/pda-pathological-demand-avoidance-syndrome.aspx not diagnosing but just putting this here in case it helps anyone.

And as a few posters have recognised 12 year old girls can be odd.

I remember a big fight about not wanting to go to parents evening with my folks because my jeans had white stitching not yellow. I really thought people would care.

And again because I wore cropped jeans and I hadn't shaved my ankles! Despite having boobs that would fit my mothers bra but I was still in vests. No one on their right mind was looking at my ankles were they.

I was made to go out and it was fine.it could be just a stage it really could.

I still think that you can't let the child rule, whatever. You are saying that if there are siblings you simply make the easy going ones give way to the one who is going to be difficult, (for any reason).
Reading it through again OP has an older child. If they are packed, excited and sitting in the car do you simply say 'sorry darling- get out and unpacked - holiday is off because I can't make your sister go'?
You then have the older one crying but it doesn't matter because she is easier to deal with!
I don't think it fair and wouldn't do it to the older one.

Reading it through again I see that OP did the sensible thing and was carrying her to the car. She hasn't come back so we can assume it worked!
I would have DC1 in front with the driver and the other adult in the back holding on to DD and saying 'you can scream all you like but you are too young to leave'- then discuss later when the tantrum was over.

I dont think anyone is saying that they should not go on holiday.
Just that its often more complicated than simply telling the dd that she has to go, and that sometimes increasingly harsh sanctions are not helpful.
If you have a horse who is afraid to jump theres very little to be gained by trying to pull him by the reins over the jump, or taking his apple away.
Surely best to help him find a way to manage the jump.

I still think that you can't let the child rule, whatever.

I will ask you again.

If you have exhausted your behaviour management strategies and the child is too large to manhandle and still refusing to budge. You tell them in a very stern voice that it is not negotiable and then what? How do you not let them rule?

Real people have to make these choices every day. Life is not as simple as you make out. The OP may well be using appropriate behaviour management techniques and have always done so. I did with my DD and she was exceptionally compliant until the day she realised she couldn't cope in school. Then nothing worked. Of course we told her that school wasn't optional and tried everything in our power to get her to give in. Strategies that had always worked were suddenly unsuccessful.

Deciding that you won't give in is all very well until the child does the same and you reach stalemate. When they are two you can pick them up and put them in the car. That isn't so easy when they are 12.

Yes but if you strongly believe that the horse is intent on spoiling the show for all the other competitors and you are against the clock, do you really have time to figure out the psychology behind it all before your time is up?

In the long term, yes, try to get to the bottom of repeated behaviour patterns and help kids manage them, but when you're trying to catch a flight, what should you do? That was the OPs question.....

I would have DC1 in front with the driver and the other adult in the back holding on to DD and saying 'you can scream all you like but you are too young to leave'

That is so ridiculous that it is almost funny. You have clearly never tried to restrain a 12YO who is prepared to fight. They don't just scream.

No. Sometimes theres little you can do at the time. Sometimes you have to let the bugger go back to the bloody stable.
Sometimes you cut your losses and sometimes you offer a carrot. Or a smaller jump.
Tbf, its not a perfect analogy.
Maybe it was possible to carry her to the cR and strap her in. Maybe some small reward/ collaboration would have been helpful.

All I'm saying is, i don't think this is just about showing her who's boss.

And what would you do with the horse?

Gold, I'm nodding along to all your posts :)

It's very easy to judge and decide what you would do with a dc like that, but unless you do, you have no idea.

I struggle to get my 9yr old into school sometimes, but I'm not about to drag him in kicking and screaming. I could, but it would be humiliating and counterproductive, and he definitely wouldn't go in happily the day after.
You have to find other ways.
If the op has got into the way of bribery, it sounds like this behaviour has been an issue for a while.

"Maybe some small reward"
And that's where you so easily fall into bribery.

I think it probably is a good analogy.

You can't force horses. You have to get them to want to do what you ask. The same applies to children as they become teens. You stop being able to force them and have to rely on them choosing to do the right thing.

With horses you have to stop and work out the reason behind the behaviour just like with children. If the reason they are refusing is that they are scared you will have no chance of forcing them as anyone who has tried to load na unwilling horse onto a trailer with testify. You can hold the biggest whip in the world and it won't make a jot of difference. You have to find a way to get them to choose to walk up the ramp because you sure as hell aren't going to manhandle them in.

I have no idea. I have my own 5 yo "horse" who I am trying to help with tantrums.....

I think, as a very last resort, I would have sent everyone else on holiday and stayed back with the 12 yo for a very boring week of no screens, no friends and spring cleaning.....

Not necessarily.
The alternative is to fuck up the holiday for everyone by not going, or to force her to go (not always possible, and likely to be traumatic).
The strategies that would be appropriate for a toddler are not usually going to be useful for a 12 yo.

Sorry that was to fav
And yes, thats what i meant gold
You put it much better

Fingers crossed for the OP.

Amanda, I didn't mean that to come across as snidey, sorry if it did :)

What I meant was, so many things in life are non-negotiable - school, family holiday, going to Grandma's on her birthday, family day out planned for months, so many things, it's very easy to end up rewarding for doing these things, which then becomes a case of the child demanding better rewards for these necessary things, which then looks like the child is ruling the roost.

I know because my life is a constant battle of trying to find out where reward ends and bribery starts, and watching for signs that the dear child is starting to take advantage of me again

Bribery can be a sign of weak parenting, but I believe it often shows desperation on the parent's part, who really don't know what to do about very difficult behaviour.

Something I find a lot on MN is that so many posters judge all children on a level, and don't take into account that all dc have their own personalities and foibles. Some children are naturally very easy, some are awkward little buggers and need so much more input to become decent human beings.

I didn't think it was snidey.

I completely agree with Gold, and the horse analogy works well.

Parenting is not a battle. Your job is not to show your children you are the boss and they must do as you say. There is an element of that but the ultimate task is to tech them how to grow up into responsible adults. They have to learn to think for themselves, not just do as they are told.

You want them to learn to behave because they know what is right, not because you have told them what to do. You need to lead and guide, not just issue orders to be followed.

Rewards for positive behaviour are good. We all need rewards. Punishments have their place but they don't actually encourage good behaviour, they just make people feel bad about themselves and children who feel bad about themselves, don't behave well and often display this kind of self destructive behaviour. So you end up with a downward spiral of behaviour that is very hard to get out of.

Overly harsh parenting is by far the most damaging type of parenting.
Firm clear boundaries with reasonable consequences but tonnes of positive feedback and good communication, will produce well balanced children who have no need to act out this way.

Goldmandra you have done some fantastic work on this thread.

Am still agog at those who think they could pick up a kicking, screaming12 year old and bundle them into a car without sustaining injury to the child or themselves.

My DD had a terrible year age 11/12. Hormones, periods, transition to secondary school, friendship issues and anxiety all played a part.

Yes it's a struggle, but it really isn't about them "controlling the family" or "ruling the roost".

It's a hard time for everyone but love, forethought, kindness, patience and understanding work. Laying down the law doesn't - because all you are actually doing is copying their behaviour. And all that does is escalate the hostility, resentment and aggression.

How on earth can a child respect parents who behave like 12 year olds?

Some very good advice and interesting viewpoints on this thread. Reading with interest because DD1 is almost 11 and takes after her mother

I want OP to come back and tell us how she won the battle!