Breastfeeding on Cross Country trains - a horrid experiance

[Paulala]

Hello ladies, I'm a first time poster & a first time mum so apologies if I introduce myself by way of a horrid experience but I'd like to know if you think I'm being unreasonable.

I've just taken my first train journey with my 7 month old boy, we were travelling alone to Derby with everything we needed for a week on a Cross Country train. Everything was going ok until we returned to our seat from a nappy change. The nappy change itself was quite upsetting for him, being strapped to a table in a moving urine soaked metal cubical isn't very pleasant, but I hadn't expected a lot from the facilities.

I intended to give him a breastfeed at our seat but when we got there the seat beside us was occupied (we were in a set on 2 seats not a table of 4). I asked the man sitting in the seat if it would be possible for him to move to one of the single vacant seats 3 rows up just while I breastfed so I could have a little bit of privacy. He said No & stated that was the seat he was allocated why should he move.

I asked him again saying my baby needed to be fed, he was hungry & distressed & there were empty seats in view he could use. He said I should move there instead, this really wouldn't have helped as they were single aisle seats & would have meant I'd have to feed even more publicly. I was so upset I asked him if he expected me to breastfeed in the seat beside him with him watching & he just shrugged his shoulders.

At this point everyone close by was aware of the situation & I'm still standing in the aisle with an upset baby, this man hasn't even got up to allow us to sit down. The ticket inspector then arrives & I explain to him that the man in the seat beside us is causing a lot of distress with his insistence on sitting there while I breastfed. Anyone who's traveled by train will know neighbouring seats offer no prospect of personal space.

I fully understand his right to the seat he booked but both he & I could see other seats he could have taken until I stopped feeding then he could have returned to the seat he booked when we finished. I'm sure many men would have been totally ok with doing that. Instead he was nasty & snarly & the thought of him watching me feed my baby in such a tight space was horrible. I had no option but to ask the ticket inspector to help me find another seat & to help me move all my things, we would also need the assistant at Derby station to be made aware we'd be on another carriage. All because this man would not move 3 rows up.

Still seating stubbornly in his seat the man recognised how upset he'd made me & stated loudly to everyone, right I'll move & asked the guard what he was going to do about it. The guard then said we'll sit you in first class sir don't worry about it you will be ok there. I couldn't believe it he'd made me suffer through a very public request to breastfeed privately (or as private as I could be) he'd initially insisted he would not move while I did so & left me feeling like I shouldn't be breastfeeding on a train, all while I stood with a distressed baby in a moving carriage while everyone watched. When the man eventually moved I sat & fed my baby & cried it was the worst breastfeeding experience I've ever had.

I have to travel back next week with the same train company & I'm dreading it, I can't express milk & I'm really worried something similar will happen again. I think trains should have a breastfeeding policy which recognises a womans need for privacy and a bit of respect. Not a system where men are rewarded for making women feel bad about the need to feed their babies. Do you think I'm being unreasonable?

Cheers ladies,
Paula

But knitted you know that most seats now are allocated.

If the man had moved to another seat he may have been moved by its proper occupant and on his return his dear might have been taken if he hadn't booked it.

Train seats are like gold on a commute.

Neither me or dh could physically stand for long periods where it's perfectly possible to bf on a train seat.

I agree catsize the thread was disgraceful. The bullying and behaviour of the posters description of herself was dreadful.

Her accusations against this man were vile.

Should read The request could have been asked nicely The OP suggests she didn't including accusing of wanting to watch her breastfeeding.

"Hi, excuse me, can I get back to my seat?"
"Yes, no problem"
"Oh, I'm going to be feeding baby. If she kicks or anything I'm sorry, they do that. And there isn't much space on trains.There are some spaces down there if you want to move for a bit. I'll keep your seat for you" smile.
Either "no, it's fine" or "thanks, well see how we go" smile

catsize no they were right chubbers

I just wouldn't dream of expecting a complete stranger to shift so I could have more room. It's just the same as having a toddler in your lap. Goes with parenting.

I just thought her manners were quite dreadfully entitled and when thwarted bullying.

Anyway posted out now.

Still I may now need to use the word dyad

earth, I think that the OP was unreasonable in saying that but no doubt defensive after all the horrible stuff said about her.
OP may have asked you to move too, who knows.
You were able to get on and off the train.
I also have a hidden disability. Train seats are particularly hard for me. I would still have moved, even though getting up and sitting down again would be painful and time consuming.

You were able to get on and off the train.

Not without help I can't and the time it would take me to move the OP could have breastfed the baby.

I've breastfed on loads of trains. Took v small DD2 from London to the Midlands on a train. I was slightly worried about nappy-changing and inflicting DD2's poo on everyone (put her mat down on the space in the corridor, which was quite peaceful) but not about hoiking her onto my bosoms.

I think it's probably OK to say "excuse me, I'm about to feed the baby and I may shove into your space a bit even though I'll try really hard not to - you might prefer to move" but not to say "I am about to partake in the Sacred Private Ritual of Breastfeeding, avert your eyes you penis-holding perve".

You are being VERY unreasonable.

If he had a booked seat, the chances are he was travelling on an advance ticket. These tickets come with the explicit condition that he must be travelling in that specific seat. Crazy as it may sound, if he sat in another seat he would technically void that ticket and thus travel on an invalid ticket, which could constitute a criminal offence.

Asking someone to break the law just so you didn't have to move and publically breastfeed isn't just unreasonable, it's rude and selfish.

I'm glad he got an upgrade to first class rather than you.

Fine, your disability trumps mine.
If you need help to get on and off, am guessing you usually travel with someone so this wouldn't arise. Or you travel to or from major stations where assistance is available.

She didn't really ASK the man to move though did she. She EXPECTED him to.
She wouldn't accept him saying no, so it was never a request, it was an order.

I have to disagree with you op. Recent legal changes and high profile campaigns/cases have made it so that women can breastfeed wherever they like. This goes to normalise breastfeeding, which is terrific for all. However, to demand special treatment somewhat turns the tide IMHO. Breastfeeding is normal and can be done in a train seat. I've breastfed a strapping, twitchy 13 month old in a packed train (discreetly of course) and not had an issue. Take a scarf with you or use a muslin but breastfeeding should really be slipped into every aspect of normal life.

He didn't complain about you feeding so close to him; crikey, that's a step forward in itself!!

Catsize

"Out of consideration for your fellow passenger, you asked him to move from one aisle seat to another."

the OP made it clear from her posts that she asked because of her perceived needs. Not out of respect for fellow passengers.

"He was ridiculous to refuse."

Why?

"At that point though, I would have just sat back down, seething, and fed as best I could. No doubt he would have moved once baby feet etc were invading his space."

But she didn't she made a scene.

"Did you look for other places though?"

She did but they were equally unacceptable

"And it would have been nice if YOU had been moved to first class, even temporarily. Instead, the man's selfish attitude was rewarded and no doubt he was pleased with himself."

He was harassed and IMO bullied by the OP and if anyone was rewarded for bad behaviour it was the op as she got both of the seats, there is no guarantee that first class would have had two seats together that were free.

"This thread does NOT show MN in a good light at all."

Why because posters haven't rounded on a man who was doing nothing wrong?

Just had to put this in
Cuddling the cat I told ds 2 we were a dyad.

He poured some cereal dressed only In his boxers and Added beer to the shopping list.

Not impressed one iota!

He was ridiculous to refuse because he would have had to get up anyway to allow the OP back into her seat. Although he seemed reluctant to do that too.
This would have been a perfectly manageable situation for most people. The man would have had first dibs on the seat in the event the carriage became full.
Most first class carriages seem fairly empty, and no doubt the conductor did not move the man worrying that he might get the only remaining seat. And if it had been the 2+1 configuration, she wouldn't have needed two seats (accepting the argument that she didn't NEED two seats but this would have made feeding a lot easier and not risked baby's head/feet in the aisle).
Don't really want to get into hypothetical 'what ifs' though.
I am not the only one to be dismayed at the general vitriol and unhelpful comment from MNHQ, whatever the reasonableness, or lack thereof, of the OP. That is why I think this thread is not a good representation of the generally wonderful MN.

This thread is bonkers.

This, for instance

"In OP's shoes I would never dream of asking someone to move I would have just breastfed. I mean isn't that the whole point? That you just get on with it as you would if you were bottle feeding?"

is an example of some of the confused attitudes on here.

Firstly, no the whole point is to give your baby nutrition.

Secondly, "as if you were bottle feeding" - clearly this poster at least does have a subconscious sense that bottle feeding is a norm that bf-ing should aspire to. Not only is bf capable of being subsumed into a bottle-feeding = normal culture; but actually, it is the "whole point" of bf-ing and being pro-bfing - that you can prove that it requires society to make no extra accommodation for you. The "whole point" of bf-ing, for this poster at least, is not good nutrition or comfort or convenience for mothers or babies; but fitting in, not getting in anyone's way, making no requests or demands.

I think we have serious confusion between something being good in its own right, and something being good because it doesn't disrupt neo-liberal commercial norms. People keep banging on about paying for the seat. How is the baby supposed to pay for the seat? It doesn't have a job yet. Is the baby a jobless scrounger? Already? This is really about the all-pervasiveness of marketised discourse and this is what is making me think of a bunker.

Also - confusion between things being normal and things requiring no accommodation. It is normal to get old and frail and slow and normal for old ladies to catch buses. This means that they require a little extra time. It doesn't mean I stand behind old ladies getting on buses, looking at my watch, going "come on come on I haven't got all day, being old is normal, it doesn't mean you have to hold everyone up. If you want to move at your own pace, pay for a taxi to wait for you!"

Also - my babies, at 7 months, when not feeding, would sit on my lap and look forwards at things and people. So we would occupy the same footprint (bum print!) in a seat as just me. When they fed, they would lie across me and take up a lot more space horizontally. More space than is available in some trains - some are very narrow. If my sister was in the next seat I would stick my elbow in her and she would find the nodding sucking head of her niece right next to her chest quite cute. Some strange man - as I said before - I found myself quite unable to do it.

As I said earlier I don't really know why I am engaging to this extent because I am a bit, erm, chinny reckon about the whole thing. But I do feel that some of the attitudes on here are very sad and worrying so I just wanted to get all that out there and ask everyone - really? really?

What the heck?

No one is suggesting the baby pays for a seat. What I assume people are referring to is if you need additional space, on public transport planes etc you are expected to book and pay for that seat. Not request other people move.

That's the way it is.

A lot of guff to make a pretty rubbish point.

Catsize
But by that thinking she was unreasonable because she was already on her feet and there were empty seats.

As for the vitriol is that because the vast majority of posters think that she was BU, because MNHQ said that she was probably being PFB or because they let the (frankly offensive) comments about the man stand?

Paying for a seat - a lot of people are saying get a friends and family railcard and get the baby a seat/ticket because it makes sense! It is actually cheaper...
Although children under 5 are free but a F&F railcard gives you a really good discount but you must be traveling with/have a ticket for a child.
F&F railcard costs £30 pa
You save a third of an adult fare and 60% on Children's fares...
eg I do a journey that costs £92.50 return for one adult
With a F&F railcard the same journey for one child and one adult costs £78.65...
Obviously in my case you have to make 2+ journeys over a year to get your £30 back...but you can use it on day trips etc too...(then again in my case I have to get 2 older than 5 children's tickets anyway - so I save the cost of a railcard on one journey...)

Oh sorry vezziethat made me laugh. neo liberal commercial norms on a par with dyad

The op was a drama lama making a huge fuss out if doing what we all do/did in public places and in public transport.

To be honest the other passengers must have been completely gob smacked at the fuss. That poor bloke too.

The guard moved him to first class. Not the op did he.

Speaks volumes.

This does nothing to advance the norm of bf quite the contrary.

Calling random strangers perverts because they refuse to obey your demands is dreadful.

For goodness sake you drape a scarf over you and the baby, plug it on and usually read or doze.

vezzie Mon 11-Aug-14 12:36:04

Totally agree.

But I think your wasting your breath here. No sorry, you are wasting your breath here.

I understand babies stick out a bit more when feeding - fine. But at least they are quiet. I think most people would take small flash of boob over screaming baby in melt down!

I am still struggling to understand the issue with just well, bfing. Bottle feeding has sod all to do with it and bringing that crap in further weakens your point vezzie.

When on the boob furthest away from man keep hold of feet, when on boob nearest man maybe tilt diagonally a little away from him. Job done, non?

"In OP's shoes I would never dream of asking someone to move I would have just breastfed. I mean isn't that the whole point? That you just get on with it as you would if you were bottle feeding?"

vezzie - this is the post that makes it about giving your baby nutrition - from boob or bottle, who gives a flying shit. YOUR post is all about political weirdness and making out like your special for having boobs that produce milk. You're not. Get over it.

Oooooh is that what I meant?! Thanks for clearing that up.