to think if you want friends you have to go out and make friends?

[cailindana]

I've moved around a lot and generally succeed in making a few good friends wherever I go. It's not through luck or my sparkling wit and personality that this happens, it's because I take every opportunity to talk to new people, I invite people to my house, I let people know I would like a new friend and I work hard at it.

AIBU to think there's no point in complaining that you have no friends if you're not actually going to do the (sometimes considerable) legwork it takes to make a new friend?

I'm absolutely not saying you're guaranteed to make friends in every situation Clarinet. I'm saying that friendship doesn't just happen. It takes effort.

I agree that the success rate in making friends can vary hugely Cabbage. But that doesn't negate the fact that unless you actually try to make friends it is never going to happen.

The problem is that when you say it like that, it does put the blame on the person who can't make any. Sometimes friendships don't happen. I've been part of groups where I never got past awkward small talk with, I've been part of groups where everyone was my bff.

A person can recite all the stock phrases they want, it's not going to result in friendship if they don't click. That's no one's fault.

It's like saying you have to work on getting out of depression. Yes, you do. But saying it like that makes it sound like if they don't have the energy to work on it, it's their own fault for being depressed.

Yes, people need to put themselves out there, but it's rather silly to say that if you put yourself out there you will make friends, because that's not the case. No one likes having no friends. Sometimes it just doesn't happen.

But sometimes you put in the effort and still don't make friends, that's all I'm trying to say I suppose. So it's not a case of not trying.

If you try and fail, then that is very frustrating. What bugs me is people who make literally no effort yet sit around talking about how unfriendly everyone is.
What really hacks me off is the "I don't do small talk" bollocks, with the implication being that anyone who does do small talk is a bit stupid. If you don't do small talk then you're cutting down your potential to make friends massively. If you're no good at small talk, that's another thing entirely, as it can be quite difficult. But if you are going to make friends you have to have that opening conversation that's a bit awkward and full of boring shit before you get to know the person and can talk about more interesting things.

I think there's some truth in the idea that if you don't make any effort or continually put your nuclear family first you won't have many friends.

However, just showing up and being friendly and inviting people isn't enough, not to make meaningful friendships which are rather few and far between. Talcum I have been in this situation recently, and it really is them, not you. Sometimes as OneCabbageTree says, you just don't fit somewhere, or even worse, something about you is too different to mean you will fit within existing groups. In cities, in large towns, in places with lots of international families, this won't matter, you can move on and find other like-minded people. But, if your face doesn't fit in a village or small town, it isn't going to be changed by being uber-friendly (it's not about the size of the town, it's about the diversity of people plus their openness to newcomers who want to make friends, invite people over).

'totally self-absorbed but expects everyone to forgive her for being a delicate little flower.'

That sounds like me I agree with you that friendship takes effort, and sympathise with your annoyance that you feel you put all the effort in, while others 'sit back' I think you said. But...we are not Sims, you know? We don't build up neat little friendship points by doing neat little activities.
Also, why does this issue bother you so much? I'm just curious, as I too remember a previous thread of yours along these lines.

I think introvert/extrovert are now often more commonly used to describe the balance of alone time/social time that a person needs. Some people will enjoy a party but then need a day or a week of down time to recover. Some people organise their lives so that they are never alone.

I think there is this whole myers/briggs personality type thing that people get into?

I agree that it's a load of tosh to say that 'introverts' are never judgemental etc. etc.

what I'm saying is you have a few stock phrases to start a conversation with a new person and then if you click and the conversation takes off then you go from there.
What if you don't click? What if the people you find yourself surrounded by, you have absolutely nothing in common with?. I can quite honestly say that out of all of the parents of children in my son's class at primary school, I really wouldn't want to socialise with any of them. Playground pickup time was basic niceties with a couple of people, but we were just so different, that there was nothing that we were ever going to 'click' about.

Even the close friends that I do have, I still sometimes struggle to think of what to talk about. You are making it sound like a simple skill when it really isn't. I have good listening and communication skills. I listen and talk for a living, I can discuss issues easily, but social chit chat has always been a difficult, uncomfortable, almost unpleasant experience for me.

I agree that the success rate in making friends can vary hugely Cabbage. But that doesn't negate the fact that unless you actually try to make friends it is never going to happen.
Yes, there is a lot of truth in that, but there is also truth in the fact that there are many barriers that make "trying" more difficult for some people, and "trying" doesn't guarantee success. There are some people who fit better into different social groups, through no fault of their own. Blaming people who struggle to make friends, by telling them that they are just not trying hard enough, is a really horrible and unfriendly thing to say.

It annoys me because I sometimes feel under pressure to provide people with friendship. I hear that such and such is annoyed that I didn't invite her to something or such and such thinks I don't like her because I didn't expressly invite her over while I was talking to someone else. It is not my duty to make other people feel loved and adored. It is not my duty to always be "on" and make sure no one feels left out. I sometimes have off days, I sometimes just want to be with one person and not include everyone. I have run myself ragged in the past trying to make sure no one feels left out but I'm starting to think fuck it, if you want to be my friend make some fucking effort! I hate that because someone perceives me to be "leaving them out" there is no consideration of the fact that it actually not all about them, there might be a hundred reasons why they weren't involved. I hate having to constantly reassure people I like them and be oh so careful I don't hurt their feelings by not smiling at them at exactly the right moment or by being lost in my own thoughts for a second and neglecting to wave at them on the park.
I'd like to be the one to be the delicate flower for once!

I hear that such and such is annoyed that I didn't invite her to something or such and such thinks I don't like her because I didn't expressly invite her over while I was talking to someone else.

I suppose the upside of being a bit more reserved is you get to avoid this kind of thing…

If people are letting you know through others that they are pissed off, I don't think they are delicate introverts - passive aggressive and a bit bitchy maybe.

Thing is though merry this comes up time and again on MN too - people heartbroken that such and such happens to have other people they like to spend time with, complaining that they don't automatically get included in established groups at the school gate.

Are you so very bugged by the 'delicate flower' in your life, OP?

I know in some of the many places I've lived, I've been perceived as the quiet, shy one. Others know me as confident, dry-humoured, a bit sweary. Hell, I've even been described as 'bubbly' (only once, mind). I make the same kind of effort everywhere. Sometimes you simply don't find anyone on your wavelength and learn to operate on a casual-chat basis. There are plenty of people who actively assert that they barely have time for the friends they already have. If I'm making an effort with new people, it must be an effort for them too, and I'm not sure I want to inflict myself on someone who feels that way. Maybe I'm just too lazy to persist where there's no genuine meeting of minds.

Be the delicate flower then! Why not try it out? You don't need to reassure people or wave at them at set times or whatever...all this sounds like a big resentment for you, but one that you've also sort of played into.

Cailin - these MN friendship concerns could be real, not everything is happening in exactly the same way it happens in your world.

Thing is, that wouldn't really be me Beeyump. I love meeting new people, I love social situations so I'm not going to suddenly stop that side of my personality. What I'd like though is an acknowledgement that even though I'm "confident" I also have feelings and also have off days. It bugs me that "introverts" can get away with being essentially anti-social but if I happen to be grumpy then it's such an awful thing and something must have gone wrong and oh god what's wrong with cailin does she hate me? Eh NO! I'm just fucking tired!!

I currently have the bizarre situation where three people have offered to look after my children over the summer while I work. If I turn one down I will offend them so I have divide the babysitting up between them! Now, I get that this very much a "my diamond shoes are too tight and my wallet's too small for my twenties" situation but ffs! Anyway this is off topic.

True, Beeyump, but I can't help being hacked off at the whole "they don't contact me, they don't invite me" malarkey. Why don't you contact them?? Why don't you invite them? Phones go both ways!

I find it difficult to make friends, but I don't go around complaining about it either, I sort of just hope that perhaps it will happen someday.
I had great friends from high school and still keep in touch but since moving to London I really haven't made any lasting friends.
I've had friends for a while and then it sort of fades when either one's situation changes.
I would love to have a friend, someone who lives near me and is at a similar place in life, but I work full time and then pick up DS and rush home, so no after works socialising with colleagues either.
Can't go to baby/toddler groups because these are all during work hours... I now wish I had been more active when I was still at home.
So not sure where would my opportunities lye? Where is my chance to be more active and start a conversation? I perhaps when I have another child and go to baby groups again?

I think baby groups are a great place to meet people, but they are often derided here on MN for some reason.

I didn't manage it the first time, but perhaps second time would be better, then again I imagine that with a second baby you have less time to spend at baby groups as you have the older child to look after as well.
Also you are not anymore a first time mum, so will possibly not fit into that circle.
And i'm not having another baby just so I would get another chance at MAYBE making a friend...

So probably won't happen.

I've seen a fair few people mention the "fitting in" thing. What does that mean? Does it mean that the people you get to know must be very similar to you?

BTW most of the people at the group I run have two children.

In fact, now that I think of it, practically all of them have two children or more.

Cailindana, forgive me, but you seem quite blinkered about the things that people might have going on in their lives, and you seem to think there is a solution to all of them.

That's fine, but I think you might have to accept that not everyone is like you and also that not everyone will react in the same way as you do.

I have friends. They are internet friends. I talk to most of them most days, but have only met a handful of them on one or two occasions. That's fine. I'm actually quite comfortable with that. In Real Life, I have a group who I volunteer with. We get on fine, and I can talk to any individual in the group most of the time. They understand my certain predicaments, and make allowances. However, they don't need to deal with me more than say a day a month.

That is the level of friendship I can manage. It's fairly superficial. I can't manage more.

Here are my varied predicaments which make me hard work for friends to deal with:

I can't stay up later than 9:30. I need to go to bed to sleep off my medication.

I can't afford evening's out, and when I can, I choose to prioritise that spare cash on my husband and children who deserve it the most.

I don't want people to the house - the banister is broken, the carpets are ripped and need replacing, and the bathroom suite is usable, but cracked and chipped and part of the ceiling needs replastering. I don't have the time, money or energy to fix these. Yes a 'nice friend' won't judge. They feel sorry for me though, and I don't want that either.

I don't have the money for a bottle of wine, and can't drink due to medication. So I'd be asking people to come round, drink at me, and leave by nine.

On any given day I might be absolutely fine, able to freely converse, laugh, tell jokes, keep up with the conversation, or I might be erratic, jumpy, tearful, unable to cope at all. I don't know which I'm going to be until I'm being it. All invitations are replied to; 'I'll do my best to be there (and I will), but if I'm having an off-day I'll have to decline. I'll let you know then.' Important occasions that I can't miss are planned for months, have contingencies, have a group that I go with just in case I can't cope, and occasionally I have to medicate just to get there. I need to spend a couple of days recovering from these. God, I can remember the choking terror every time I thought of having to get through my brother's wedding.

Outside of the day-to-day, I have issues. I'll occasionally not be able to talk to people. I don't mean smalltalk with strangers, I mean I won't be able to talk to people at all. There will be months that pass by when I can't get out more than monosyllables. I had one brilliant friend from University who used to call and talk at me once a week, just accepting the dull 'uh' answers, just to make sure I had that contact. She needed to move on for personal reasons and I don't hold it against her at all.

At other times, I loudly and bombastically over-shout everyone and obsess over tiny issues until they crush the rest of the conversation. I hate myself even when I'm doing this.

The alternative is to go quiet. Sit in the conversation literally too terrified to start up in case I can't stop myself or in case I've got the wrong end of the stick. Your 'how to hold a conversation' lesson, wonderful (and patronising) as it might have been doesn't hold up when you've got voices in your head replaying 'don't speak; you're evil, you're awful, if you speak they'll find out...'

Like I say, sometimes I'm fine. I'm sparkling. Other times are horrifying. People have to put up with the hot/cold-ness of me.

Oh, and there's the occasions when I literally don't know up from down. I could say pretty much anything at those moments, and I have to crawl back and apologise and explain what's just happened and how that person wasn't really me - it was the other one who took over, the one I'm trying to subdue with drugs. Fortunately this is getting rarer. It's not over yet though. Some friends are fine with it. Other friends find it really difficult.

So yeah, I'm aware that I'm nobody's prize as a friend. I'm aware that all my friends, internet or otherwise, need time away from me from time to time, just to regroup and restock, and so that they can have normal, pleasant relationships. I'm painfully aware, constantly, about how much work I am.

Sometimes I might complain. You know what? Sue me. I occasionally complain that I don't have friends and how it would be nice to just kick back and enjoy time with someone, just pottering around the shops or going for a coffee, but shops and coffee times, lovely though they might be, come with a massive side-order of all of the rest. I don't blame any other person on this Earth for not wanting all the rest - I am fully, completely and wholly to blame for this situation, but I do reserve the right to occasionally think that the situation is shit.

I do my best. Maybe it's worth thinking that the people complaining are also doing their personal best, and what they want isn't lessons on how to improve themselves, but sympathy.

I've been horribly depressed in the past Fog, so bad that I couldn't get out of bed, unable to complete a sentence, at one point I was even hallucinating. Luckily I've recovered but I'm well aware of how medical conditions can totally stand in the way of making (and keeping) friends.
Like I said before, there are genuine barriers to people getting out there and making friends. What I object to is people who don't have these barriers and yet complain about everyone else not handing friendship to them on a plate.

When I was depressed my friends came around when I could manage it. They stayed as long as I could bear it, then left when it was clear I wasn't coping anymore. They cleaned my house, played with my kids, made me food. Equally for my friend who suffers badly with chronic depression, it's ok if I call round or she comes to me and she just sits there while we drink coffee and watch tv. I am aware I am lucky to have these people, they were a huge support to me last year when I had PND (which was not nearly as bad as my first severe bout of depression). That's what friendship is about, but it is hard to find. Thing is, you won't find it till you let people in and let them know what you need. I appreciate how difficult and near impossible that can be though, especially when you're ill.