To not really want my DSes to see their Aunties' boobs!

[Lemonheart]

Have NC because this is quite specific!

Next year, my DM celebrates a big birthday. She is planning a party for all the family in a hall with a disco, a live band ... and burlesque.

The burlesque troupe is run by DSis2, and also includes DSis1 and our cousin. They are very good at what they do, singing, dancing, pole dancing etc, but there is an obvious sexual undertone to all of this, and they do strip down to being topless apart from masking tape on their nipples. I should add that I have no problem with this and am very proud of them and don't think I am particularly prudish!

But DM intends for the burlesque to go on in between the live band's sets, meaning it won't just be late night entertainment, it will be on throughout her party, including when the kids are there. I have 3 DSes, and the youngest two are 3 and 1, so I doubt it will have much impact on them, but the eldest will be coming up to 7 and I just don't know what he will make of it. I might sound like I'm pearly clutching now, but I just don't think it's appropriate entertainment for a family party.

Seeing my sisters' boobs will be a bit weird for DH (he made a yik face when I told him!), and there will be aunts, uncles and grandparents there, plus DSis's own DS. It's a show that is designed to titillate, how is that appropriate when the guests are all family?

I understand that my DM is proud of my DSisters and I haven't said anything yet. I just want to know if I am being ridiculous and small minded first. WIBU to ask DM to schedule the burlesque show for the end of the evening so I can take my DSes home to bed first?

I suspect it will cause a bit of a row if I say anything, and I am sure I will be accused of being jealous and prudish.

Am I?

Gosh how on earth has your DS got to the stage where she thinks everyone should want to be gagging to see her ans her 'troupe's tits??

The idea of wanting to jiggle your boobs in the faces of your family (apart from DH) disgusts me.

Pretty much everyone on here agreed with me that it was not suitable entertainment for kids and family

It's not that it's not "suitable" for children (it is): it's that it's sexist objectification of women's bodies.

But you seem OK with that

Holy cow, OP, I just read your update about the car show!

!!

That is unbelievably inappropriate.

It's hard to say. I should think that everyone will be perfectly polite and gloss over any awkwardness. We're not really a family that does confrontation and big bust ups.

I spoke to DH about it while we were at the motor show yesterday and he just said "It's your family, yeah it's weird as hell but the DSes are going to see that at some point anyway!" He's totally right ofc, but it's made it harder somehow, knowing everyone on here thinks it's weird too.

After she split up with my dad 15 years ago, DM had a bit of a breakdown and tried very hard to prove she was still attractive to anyone she wanted. She shagged and then stalked a bloke from my year at school, very publicly and then several other young blokes in their teens and twenties. Sometimes she's take DSis2 (who was about 16 at the time) out on the pull with her and this whole phase did untold damage to our family. I talked to my dad about it and she accused me of lying and being mad, and our relationship hasn't really recovered from that if I'm honest.

I always feel like the family stick-in-the-mud and I don't want to give anyone ammunition to feel like they've shocked me IYSWIM? They all delight in being what they think is provocative and shocking.

My DSisters put in a lot of time and effort and spend a lot of money doing these shows, and they don't break even moneywise, not even close. DM goes to pretty much every show and I think she would love to be part of the troupe too. They all just think really differently from me, and I don't feel part of my family, perhaps that's why they think I'm a bit jealous.

Is there any chance an older relative could talk to your mum and make it clear how uncomfortable this will be, particularly for some of the older men?

Grandfather? Grandmother? Your mum's brother?

That gets it away from any suggestion of sibling jealousy. Is there anyone who could be relied upon to be entirely frank about the inappropriate sexual/family issue?

This is extraordinary. I hate burlesque anyway, it's just glorified stripping for fat birds who can't dance, but at a family party? with spanking? They all sound barking mad. Do you know the venue well? Perhaps if you can find the fuse box there could be a conveniently timed power cut as the show begins?

Oh god Lemon

That's a lot of baggage, some of it designed to make it so very much harder for you to have a frank "reality check" conversation than your average daughter/sister.

Does anybody else going know what they are going to see ?

Or is this going to be a big shock surprise to them ?

My instinct would be to attempt to pull DM ans SIS back from the edge in the hope they would start seeing their worth as so much more than the degree of sexual attraction they can garner. But your post makes it sound like the sort of task that could be beyond family intervention and more a case of requiring professional input before even a scratch could be made on the surface. Realistically you might have to wait for them to crash and burn before any of them are ready to reassess and move to a healthier position.

I feel for you love, I really do.

Your mum sounds like she may have similar issues to my own. She was dead keen on the idea of me glamour modelling when I was 16. Her much vaunted "pride" in my hypothetical "getting out of tits" pushed me close to a precipice in an industry that chews people up and spits them out. That was just one manifestation of her issues. And we no longer have a realtionship.

I am not suggesting you have to do anything as extreme as estrangment, but I can recommend the benefits of at least some emotional distance.

Because you cannot make people provide the heathy relationship you desire. The only thing you can control is the degree to which you keep hoping that desired heathy relationship will become a reality. And how you doggedly keep trying to make it happen despite all the evidence that they are in no position to give you what you need,

And once you get your head around what is within your control and what is not, it gets easier to step back from the aspects that are like salt in the wound, place the priority on the family you made rather than the one you come from, and render yourself less susecptible to manipulations, manuvering, emotional blackmail and "cheif whipping boy" status.

It's not a walk in the park, and it can be a very painful jouney to acheive the required step back. But it can also be very freeing and allow you to love people despite the things they do, while keeping yourself out of range of the sparks they create.

I don't think the cheif concern should be the boobies that the kids see. I'd be inclined to be more concerned about the one sidedness of the style of family realtionships you and your DM/DSis are modelling for them. I feel shit typing that, cos it doesn't half smack of kicking a woman when she's down ... and between a rock and hard place. But it isn't meant in a critical "wtf are you doing!" way. Nobody gives us a handbook on family of the imperfect kind before we get lumbered with them. It creeps up over time and establishes itself and makes it almost impossible to see due to a "deeply involved" lens.

It's a learned process to see things in more objective terms. You (general you, not specifically you) almost have to step out of your own head to be able to do it at times, so you can work out what you do and do not have any control over, and where you should be focusing the main energies to create change for the better.

I may be wide of the mark, it's all too easy to start projecting in this mode of communication, so feel free to ignore if it bears no realtion to the essence of what you are dealing with. But if any of that sounds like it might not be so far from your reality, it might be worth mulling over while setting aside the immediate distraction of the party boobies and granddad going purple in the face.

And ...

You've not been handed an easy family road to walk by any stretch of the immagination.

OP i feel for you :(

Inappropriate situations have been normalised for your sister. Your mother has issues of her own. You, however, have control over weather your sons upbringing mirrors this weird set up. And it begins now, with going along with this bloody strange idea that it's fine for your sister to be stripping in front of the family.

I know how hard it is to go against the grain in a family - but really, how about standing by your (perfectly correct) convictions and saying you wont be attending the family gathering if your sister and her friends are going to get naked in front of everyone. Tell them it's weird and unpleasant.

Your husband seems to be finding ways to feel ok about it for your sake by the sound of it. I think he would stand by you if/when you choose to stand by your self.

X posted with mammu

She said it better than me :)

Oh my god I clicked on this thinking you were being ridiculous about breastfeeding. How wrong was I! You are of course being entirely reasonable and your family are clearly mad.

I don't know much about the origins of burlesque, but now it just seems to be a fancy word for stripping. I cannot imagine any person in their right mind thinking it is normal and ok to strip for elderly family members. On the other hand, they certainly seem determined so I'm not really sure what to suggest!

Thanks to you both.

DH would definitely stand by me if I chose to make a stand.

Before I met him I had some terrible relationships, ones I am very ashamed of now, particularly one where I was an OW to someone who treated me like a dress up doll at his convenience. At the time I loved that I was more attractive than his DW and a perfect, unchanging woman who wasn't really even human. It was only when I met DH and his family that I realised what a horrible thing I had done.

Now I have had my kids and been in a proper partnership I can see all this differently and see what I had become. DM was serially unfaithful to my dad, and I know of at least twice that she's cheated on my SD too. She's always "confided" these infidelities to me or my sisters because really she's proud of them; it means she's still attractive.

My sisters have not had very successful relationships so far either, DSis3's marriage lasted less than a year and she has moved in with 3 different guys in the four years since. DSis2 has been from "The One" to "The One" since she was 16, countless times. She can't hold down a job because it all seems too mundane. I think the troupe gives them attention and confidence. Since it actually ends up costing them money to perform every show, I can't think of any other reason why they would do it.

I agree totally that inappropriate situations have been normalised in our family and I think this has been detrimental to all of us. I don't think that taking a stand will change anything really. Particularly now my DS wasn't bothered at the motor show. They will all think I am jealous/crazy/being a bitch. I can't see anyone else in my mum's family raising this, even after the event. There's not really anyone I'm close enough to to talk to about it who I could trust not to go tattling straight to my mum.

I also feel awful and judgy because I've behaved awfully myself in the past. But I do agree that I don't want my DSes to see this as normal. My DM is very scathing of men who go to strip clubs etc, but I struggle to see the difference. Just because they do it while dressed in vintage clothing and making a face when they pop their boobs out doesn't really stop it from being stripping.

It seems to me that now would be a good time to draw a line. They don't seem to respect your feelings or opinions.

This:

Got to admit, not sure where this penchant for burlesque has come from in recent years. Glorified stripping under a veil of 'empowerment, not titillation'. Sorry ladies, but any blokes watching you aren't thinking 'there goes an empowered woman', more likely 'phwoarrr!'. No thanks.

And I also think that OP's DH 'pulling a face' when she told him, is a bit false - he's just saying it to shut you up!

He's hardly going to say the truth which is probably ''always wondered what her tits look like - now I'll find out, great!''

also OP, you know if you do go, you'll be the talk of the staff room for years to come after a teacher asks your DS what he did at the weekend. Can you imagine just how far from "stylish, empowered woman" the show will sound when a 7 year old explains it to his friends - and when they then tell their mums?

I know we are all laughing, but, Seriously though, the school could take a very dim view of this. Children aren't supposed to be exposed to this sort of thing. You could find yourself getting called in.
I wouldn't take my children for this reason alone.

Tell you DM that the children won't be attending for this reason and then get a babysitter.
(if you tell her far enough in advance, she might get your sisters to tone things down a bit and only 'perform' after a certain time. - and the problem will be solved. There will be other family members that will breath a sigh of relief as well).

I feel for you. Organising family parties is fraught at the best of times without adding inappropriate stripping (with spanking!) into the mix.

I'd be tempted to get a babysitter for your dc's. If this wasn't a family party but an event with stripping and spanking then you obviously wouldn't take your dc's to it. I think you just need to carry that principle over to family events. It's hugely inappropriate.

I also feel awful and judgy because I've behaved awfully myself in the past

Being arm twisted into a scenarios you are uncomfortable in, is not your penance.

What we all owe, to ourselves and the world at large, is to learn from our mistakes, grow and do better.

But what you don't owe is a "put up and shut up" stance with you, your husband, you kids, being the audience required to carry on inflaming your family's ongoing issues.

We all fuck up love. All of us. Rare is the person who reaches their grave never having suffered a hot flush of shame for things they've done.

Time to forgive yourself let it go now. Focus on what you got right, your own family, in order to put them in the best possible position not to carry on an unhealthy generational cycle of dysfunctional relationships and unhealthy measures of self worth.

You might as well start now, becuase you are going to have to be ready to provide buffers anyway. sweet makes a valid point. DM and DSis's lack of boundaries is putting at least one of them at an elevated risk of being reported for lewd behavoir in the vicinity of minors. I don't suppose she's at risk of ending up on the sex offenders register, but that doesn't mean the risk is free from an awful lot of fallout.

You don't want that fall out to be focused on questioning your/your DH's ability to have good judgement when it comes to your kids' needs V your family of origin's wants.

When push comes to shove you have to make a priority of your kids' need not to get dragged into a rather unhealthy family dynamic, with extra added inappropriate behavoir. Even if that means lots of argy bargy becuase you didn't satisfy DM's+DSis's desire for an audience at any cost.

Can DH not provide the veeto, to at least sheild you from complete responisbility for ducking out of the party ?

OP - you can have behaved badly in the past, but you are now aware that it was bad behaviour, you wouldn't do that again, so you have grown and improved on the fact you weren't taught normal attitudes to sex, relationships and sexuality as a child. This was bad parenting by your mum. Your job as a parent is be a good parent, so you can't just go along with what your mum wants because she fucked up with you and your DSis'!

Don't take your DSs to anything your dsis are performing at. If that means youhave to have lots of strategic 'other plans' or family illnesses, so be it, you don't have to be a 'stick in the mud' and if you don't think they will ever understand your point of view, don't bother trying to explain it, just don't expose your DSs to it.

There is no reason they do have to see it at some point, you can keep them away from performances for the next 10-15 years. That's perfectly 'doable'. (and I can't see it still being a 'thing' that gets bookings at anything other than sleezy places in a few years time).

Your mum's attention seeking approach to sexuality has influenced all her DDs, you have realised and broken away from that and with your DH are modelling a healthy relationship example to your DSs, don't let your Dsis undermine your good work. Noone needs to see their Aunt's norks.

oh and as excuses go, would your PIL be happy to have your DSs overnight for the day of the party? Could you go with "Oh, my mother in law is amazing, she's having the boys so DH and I can really let our hair down at the party, have a few drinks and then a lazy lie in to sleep off the hangovers. Such a nice treat for us!"

if you think your mum will cause issues about them not being there, the youngest has caught a bug, you think it's best if they stay with MIL rather than 'infect' eveyrone else, or your DH stays with the boys because one of them is 'ill' and you come to the party alone for a short while...

Realistically, it's only going ot be events like the motor show (which you can just have other plans and not go to) or events your Dsis' or DM arrange (as it's unlikely anyone else will book them to perform) that you need to avoid. You can do that, just you and your DH make a concious decision to do so, be 'busy' a lot!

Good luck, think you'll need it!

My mum's family area bit odd (not my mum though) and I remember at all 18ths/21sts my Aunties used to hire strippers for their DCs birthdays. I am younger than my cousins so was probably about 8-10 years old at the times of the parties but it really didn't worry me at all and it hasn't even crossed my mind until this thread HOWEVER if it had been my family doing the stripping I think it may have been very very weird and uncomfortable!

Thanks everyone. I have managed to avoid the burlesque show for a good couple of years, and always managed to keep DC away until now. TBH I wasn't keen on going yesterday, I was more interested int he motor show and allowed myself to be talked into going over to see the burlesque by DM, on the grounds that they had been asked to tone it down and be family friendly. I might have known my DSisters would LOVE the opportunity to disobey and try to shock everyone. As far as I know there hasn't been any repercussions from the venue.

Unfortunately PILs are dead and the rest of DH's family live overseas so getting them babysat there on the night of the party is out! I may well do swapsies with DH as the party venue is local, but DM will NOT be happy not to have the DSes there. It will cause an incident for sure, but I'm going to have to do it.

They bill the show as "striptease without the sleaze" so they think that makes it suitable for kids. I am not sure exactly what takes the sleaze out of the equation in their minds, as I say DM is very against strippers and strip clubs for men, but followed the Chippendales around the country at one point during the aforementioned breakdown, spent a fortune trying to get them to notice her, staying in the same hotels and pestering them a lot. That was all "not sleazy" too.

She used to take DSis2 along with her then, too, mainly because she was young and attractive and DM thought the Chippendales would pay more attention to her if she was with DSis.

Oh God that sounds so awful now. Bloody hell. My family does actually have serious problems, doesn't it.

My family does actually have serious problems, doesn't it.

Yes.

Come join the many on the same bench.

....

I've had a thought. How about a post in legal, and a "please come see my legal thread" post in adoption/fostering where some people working in child protection post.

Becuase maybe Dsis could do with a reminder that while she is entitled to her own opinion, she is not entitled to her own facts.

Rather than "uncomfortable" as the reason for non attendence, what might prove less "pooh-poohable" is a check list of what the legal/authorities backlash might be of deliberstly exposing minors to adult entertainement.

Becuase it's not just your kids, and other family members kids.... she is planning on doing this in front of her own son as well.

So far she has got away with it, but like anything a bit Russian roulette flavoured, the more you pull the trigger, the greater a risk that you get the bullet. In this case potentially a child protection shaped bullet. Wanting meetings to chat to her about her choice to cavort half naked in front of her child and other minors.

I'm not saying it would have any profound sheilding effect from fall out in this instance. It might even make it more heated. But it will offer you the chance to de-personalise it and redirect their ire onto the law rather than it being focused on your personal opinions.

With time to reflect and consider, DSis might come around to the idea of only performing to suitable audiences. And if she doesn't, at least you know you did your upmost to give her fair warning about just how thin the ice she is skating on might be.

If you had to hand the legalese confirming where the lines in the sand were, and a reasonable assessment of how child protection would view any flouting of regs aimed to protect minors, it might help bring her and DM around to the idea that "empowerment via bralessness in public" is less important than risking SS involvement.

YA so so so so so NBU

Nothing else to say really, just a world of no's

Your mum and sisters have very warped senses of reality if they think what they do is ok for families. Or even if they think it's ok to do what they do in front of families, regardless.

Sounds like your mum has a terrible self-esteem problem, that she constantly needs validation from men - and she's passed that on to your sisters - luckily you have found a great DH and it's stopped with you.

They obviously think they're happy with their way of life so there's no chance in hell of any of them seeking any kind of therapy for change because they don't want to - but I think I'd be keeping my sons away from them as much as possible before they start warping their minds as to what constitutes normal female behaviour!

I don't think I would go at all. It sounds awful, not just for your DSs but for all the family - the only ones getting anything out of this are your DM and DSis's, all of whom sound like they have ishoos.

You poor thing, this is much more serious than it first sounded. All deeply weird and sinister. Your DM using your Dsis as bait to catch a Chippendale is so fucking disgusting. Performing sexual dances in front of children etc is really messed up, and you wouldn't be unreasonable to say so. Just thank god that you've seen it for what it is!