AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

I thin most of us agree that we should be allowed to produce cartoons of Jesus, Mohammed and anyone else. If people don't like that there are plenty of countries like Saudi where that material will not be available. If you live here you have to accept those rules quoted above from the EU human rights legislation.

What we need to fight against is any religious group curbing our rights to behave freely, whether that is that we can wear bikinis, eat non halal meat and all the rest. As long as we are not prevented from doing that then I have no problem with people believing in invented Gods and spouting rubbish about women inheriting half what men do and the like although of course I reserve my right to seek to persuade them to change their views.

Robust public debate with people having to accept their precious little feelings might get hurt is much better for everyone including religious minorities than one set of approved words/speech/views that everyone has to say/hold.

The analogy of abuse by Catholic priests is always brought up as being equivalent. The big difference however is that there was / is no religious basis for condoning the abuse. Yes there was a cover up, but was there ever any Papal gathering or is there any Christian doctrine that promoted the abuse ? Perhaps those who are more familiar with Catholicism could comment.

In comparison Islamic scholars have argued successfully for inclusion into Sharia Law on religious grounds, many undesirable aspects such as those already mentioned

With regards to cartoons and historical figures...

A while ago I saw an arab teen girl wandering around our local Tesco with a t-shirt (over a long sleeved top, wearing headscarf) with the odious 'Hitler - World Tour' slogan, comoplete with drawing of the fuhrer and swastika.

Yes, I was completely offended by the shirt and her probably absolute cultural/historical ignorance of its significance. My jaw hit the floor but I didn't say anything (small DS with me at the time). So images of god/humans isn't acceptable to muslims (unless it offends someone else I guess).

You know what, there are all sorts of proscribed behaviours in the bible.
There are all sorts of things that differ between religions. All sorts of proscribed behaviours as well as advocated behaviours in all religions. At the very heart of this thread is prejudice, open and clear. It's not a discussion its a place for those with prejudices to air them, and actually, I want no part in it.

Crescentmoon, unfortunately when it comes to fear and alienation, you can be as rational and erudite as you like. Then one or two instances of hot-headed Islamisist youths beating non-Muslim up in the East End of London for doing something that isn't illegal, like buying alcohol or wearing revealing clothing and all your efforts go to waste.
Likewise radical preachers (and I think you are right to be suspicious of why some get so much publicity) make people afraid that the chaos and repression that they see 'overseas' is going to be happening in their own streets.
It's not about intelligence or discussion or even clear thinking. It's about fear and the responses it triggers. Not about Zionism, or Palestine.
I used to walk to my job under a railway bridge that had 'Whites enter at your own risk' painted on it. By three stupid boys of 15 who enjoyed the stir it created, without realising the consequences in a divided town that would impact on the more vulnerable in their community.

Well as I keep being accused of having a Zionist agenda, let me clarify:

I am not a believer, I am not Jewish, I have been atheist all my life and don't see myself change this.

However, I do see the fear in my Jewish friends. I also strongly believe that Israel has a right to exist and that there is a need for Israel to exist, as it is ultimately the only place where Jewish people may feel safe and imo they also deserve a place where they can feel safe without fear of attacks and persecution. There are plenty of Muslim states not one Jewish state. However, this does not mean that I agree with the Israeli government's approach.

What does bother me, is the increase in Islamic terrorism here in the West. People who have been given hospitality, new lives, new chances, and now becoming a threat to our society. I have a big problem with this. A Muslim terror cell tried to blow up a Dutch nuclear power plant, they had totally infiltrated the plant (planted workers there in key positions), luckily Dutch secret services were on the case. Recently, Muslim refugees were arrested for raising funds for charity under false pretenses as the money went to IS. Tip of the iceberg? Yes, I do think so.

Why does any criticism of muslim extremism become a battle between which religion is the twattyiest? Christiisns or Muslims ?

They both are! God didn't create Eden or any other made up place. Gods don't exist. Where do they live? In the clouds between space?

What do exist are extremists in every religion all over the world. And extremists are dangerous and need to be watched and monitored- for the safety of every other rational person trying to get by.

Back to the question of the thread with no bias what so ever - yes I do think muslim extremism is on the rise.

So we're going back to the hangover from colonialism of 'we let them live here and they should be forever grateful to us'. I see many, many white people taking 'advantage' of the UK system or committing crimes - no-one suggests that they should be fucking grateful that they live here. No, people like the OP only say that about the non-white people.

It's a bigoted bullshit view and completely disregards the fact that many of the people who pose a potential threat to the UK from an extremist viewpoint were bloody born here!. And an increasing number of these extremists were not only born here, they're caucasian.

If white British men and women brought up in non-Muslim families in a secular society (with all the advantages that society provides)are choosing to adopt a belief system and risk their liberty and even their own lives in the name of Allah then they clearly feel it offers them far more than their families and their society can.

THAT is what needs examining and exploring.

Why is talk of Muslim extremism always turned around to the issue of Zionism and western interference, as if without them peace and harmony would reign and there would be no extremism ?

Why is Muslim outrage only ever directed towards atrocities to muslims at the hands of non-muslims and not by their brethren ? Vastly more muslims die at the hands of other muslims, than those that are killed by non-muslims.

Why do muslims persecuting non- muslims not draw the same venom towards the aggressors ? Have there been any threads about the following ?

www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/politician-begs-world-help-iraq-yazidis-20148681139201392.html

Over the past 48 hours, 30,000 families have been besieged in the Sinjar mountains, with no water and no food,"

"Seventy children have already died of thirst and 30 elderly people have also died."

Dakhil said 500 Yazidi men had been killed by the fighters since they took over Sinjar and surrounding villages on Sunday. Their women were enslaved as "war booty", she said.

"We are being slaughtered, our entire religion is being wiped off the face of the earth. I am begging you, in the name of humanity."

Back to Syria again, over 11,000 children dead so far. Not killed by Israel.
Nothing much effective being done to stop that, and not even hitting the headlines any longer.
Extremism is dangerous, and needs opposing by all reasonable people.

And why is any critical examination of the ideology driving the extremists always met with obsfucation, whataboutery and accusations of bigotry or racism ?

Its the extremists who state chapter and verse religious justification for their actions. We are not talking anymore of just a few lone nutters. The scale of the problem is such that a critical examination of the underlying texts and scriptures is long long overdue.

'and how the world would progress without religion.'

When people claim that religion is the source of persecution and evil, I remember Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. They killed their own people by the hundreds of thousands.

cresent I do enjoy reading your posts.

When people claim that religion is the source of persecution and evil, I remember Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. They killed their own people by the hundreds of thousands

^^ I agree.

Could we not just agree that people from the middle east whether Jew or Muslim seem to get in a bit of state about things and seem more prone to violence than those in the West and leave them to get on with it whilst fighting hard against sexism and the worst features of religions and cultures which are now present in the UK and maintaining freedom of speech?

One of the nice things about the UK and why people have come here for hundreds of years for refuge is we are pretty tolerant and understanding and people want to live here. You are largely free to believe in any invented Gods you like. You can even not send your chilren to school if you choose. You can cover up or not (although I am very unhappy about police recently suggesting nude bathing was a sex crime - I hope most mumsnetters will battle against that retrograde step).

Those who want more censorship can find plenty of countries which have it.

Also one issue is what is extremism? A good lot of Muslim women my age who were more than happy to cast off stupid clothing a generation ago and don't cover are very alarmed their teenage and 20 something daughters are going backwards in that respect and some of those youngsters see it as their rebellion from parents to be more extreme than the parents. That is a worrying step and I hope it turns in the other direction. If their men cannot control themselves unless women cover then surely the solution is only let women out from these cultures to work and the men stay home and if the men want to go out make them totally cover up and be accompanied by a female member of the family.

"Could we not just agree that people from the middle east whether Jew or Muslim seem to get in a bit of state about things and seem more prone to violence than those in the West"

You mean like, let's agree those Middle Eastern goat herds are just not normal people like we in the West are? They are all violent, unreasonable, and even homicidal?

No, we can't agree on that

"So images of god/humans isn't acceptable to muslims"

Is that what you understood from It is extremely offensive to Muslims to be shown a picture/drawing of Mohammad. It is similar to making a Hindu kill and eat a cow.?

Territt - re "paedophile":

Iirc the marriage you are thinking of was consummated after the girl in question started menstruating, which was extremely normal at the time and not only among Muslims. In Europe, girls were married off as soon as they reached reproductive age even in Late Middle Ages (14th-15th Centuries).

The current norm of calling teenagers "children" and banning their sexual relations is a very recent phenomenon.