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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

nanny problem

147 replies

chimera123 · 30/07/2014 12:08

I would like to know what people think of this. I will try to make it as brief as possible. I have NC for this.

We have a cleaner/nanny, who has worked for us for several years, part-time. She told me last week that she was pregnant. Her personal situation is that she is at present living with a friend, together with her husband (who arrived a few weeks ago to live in the country). My understanding was that when he moved here she and her husband would move into their own rented accommodation quite soon, as the friend has limited space. They had not done this yet.

When she told me she was pregnant however, she also told me that she was now not prepared to pay for private accommodation as she believed that now she was pregnant she would "get a free house" (her words not mine), if she was not employed and had nowhere to live. She asked me therefore to write a letter to the local council saying that she was no longer employed by me, and also that she could not have any accommodation at my house any more (she had had a room available at our house for staying-over if necessary). I did this, and wished her well, although I did tell her I had reservations about whether she would just be handed a "free house" by the council. I was sad to let her go, as she has been great with our DS and he loves her. But, oh well...

She phoned me last night telling me that what she really wants is for me to say now to the council that she has no job or accommodation with me, but that "when I get my house", I should take her back (and pay her cash in hand so the council does not know she in fact still has her job). I am afraid I became angry with her (felt very bad later about shouting at a pregnant woman), and of course told her that I would not do that. She phoned my DH this morning asking him the same thing. He told her even more bluntly that we are finished with her and that is that, wished her luck and set her on her way.

I am now feeling terrible about this and the way it has ended. This woman has been a big part of my DS's life since before he was born, she has truly been loving towards him and he in turn loves her. I went back to work when he was three months old and I just keep remembering all the times I came home to find her cuddling him and singing him songs, and then as he grew older all the love she has showered on him. She really became like part of the family. And now it's all just cut off like that, he will probably never see her again and she will never love and cuddle him again. I feel like we have done something terrible, yet also that we had no choice.

Sorry it is so long.

OP posts:
notkatemiddleton · 30/07/2014 15:43

Chimera123- I do wonder what she has told the benefits office about her reasons for leaving your employment. if she has resigned and your letter states as such then she won't be entitled to any benefits for a while I don't think. In hindsight i would have said to her that she needs to write a resignation letter to you and thats would have been it and you would have been completely safe in that you could have then said to the benefits office that you simply accepted her resignation.

I guess the issue now (and being an employment lawyer i have seen this happen) might be that if/when she is told she can't have benefits and gets put on the housing list/doesnt get what she wants then she may come back saying that you dismissed her. Which you and I know isn't true of course.

In terms of her saying to you that you should re-employ her cash in hand when she has her house, i would write back to her stating that you can't do this and any employment she might be offered will be subject to PAYE and NI.

if you want to take her back and help her, then thats fine but ensure that its done legitimately.

Original poster
chimera123 · 30/07/2014 15:52

I know what she has told them as the council have just phoned me. She has told them I fired her.

OP posts:
Nanny0gg · 30/07/2014 15:58

What did you say to them?

notkatemiddleton · 30/07/2014 15:58

Oh no...what exactly did you put in the letter to her and has she given them that?

notkatemiddleton · 30/07/2014 16:04

If she was a self employed contractor- you need to look at the termination clauses in her contract with you. In any event if she can prove that it was due to her pregnancy, there are grounds for a discrimination claim against you.

Whether or not she is employed by you or a contractor will be decided by an employment tribunal (if it gets that far) and its always a sliding scale if you know what I mean, its assessed on a case by case basis.

MiscellaneousAssortment · 30/07/2014 16:44

Oh dear poor you, you have done the right thing but with your recent posts am worried about her trying to rip you off too.

Her being self employed helps you at this point! Yes there was a massive hooha around nanny's and tax but this doesn't apply in your case. She was actually registered as self employed and paid tax. She meets the definition of a contractor which is doing different jobs with multiple clients and she manages her own time and hourly rate etc within that.

You mentioned she does work beyond pure nannying, this is also good, I have nanny/ housekeeper/ carer type people (am disabled), and a couple have been self employed and I've gone into it carefully with HMRC and it's fine.

Check your contract and whatever emails/ texts/ paper documents you may have written things in about her terms of working for you. Texts do count so i wonder if theres anything in texts that might help? I'd check the notice period too.

I'd get some legal advice around her as a self employed person can claim you fired her - I think it's more complex than that, but do know where you stand as once pregnancy discrimination is mentioned you need to cover yourself. Just in case.

Perhaps follow this up by an email saying how sad you are that your relationship has become strained, that you understood her decision to stop working for you as being the right thing for her at this time, and we're happy to provide a letter for her stating this. But that you were shocked to hear that the council think you fired her as that is not the case. As a self employed contractor she asked to end her services to you, and although sad as she'd made such a difference in your lives etc, but had no choice but to accept her decision.

What a horrible thing to happen - poor you Flowers

MiscellaneousAssortment · 30/07/2014 16:49

Just read NotKate's posts and she's the one in the know :) listen to her!

Original poster
chimera123 · 30/07/2014 17:13

Well I have now had discussions with both her and council and seems like there was a bit of a misunderstanding, and she did not actually say that I fired her (the first worker I spoke to was being rather disingenuous), but that we agreed that she would not continue with the job now she is pregnant. I have clarified this with them, and made sure that they are in no doubt about this and I did not fire her. So it seems that part is clear anyway. I was initially very angry with her when it seemed she had said that as she knows full well there is no way I would ever have fired her.

After much crying and apologies (from her not me) we have now parted amicably, and she knows that I can do nothing further for her right now, but that in the future I am happy for her to come and visit my son etc. I will even keep the baby stuff in the basement for her. I have just made it very clear that I cannot do anything more and that she cannot come back to the job (well certainly not now or during the pregnancy anyway).

OP posts:
Gen35 · 30/07/2014 17:14

Yes this is awful, hard to believe she could be so awful and very sad for you. This resolves the question of feeling bad for her and trying to keep in contact...I hope her claiming that causes no lasting harm.

Original poster
chimera123 · 30/07/2014 17:17

She's not awful, she is extremely foolish and misguided, I believe. And badly advised by others who are themselves benefit cheats, I think. And not brought up or educated to have the same standpoints and understanding of things perhaps. I still feel sorry for her. She's had a hard life and is in general a good person. But I have to take a step away now and she must get on with her life.

OP posts:
Gen35 · 30/07/2014 17:23

Yes I missed your update when posting, glad it's reached a good conclusion!

notkatemiddleton · 30/07/2014 17:30

Well, if you don't know these things then you don't know. In my head that makes sense to me. i just don't think she realised what she was doing.

ok, keep an eye on the situation though.

I probably would write her a letter (me being me) to set out your viewpoint and that she has terminated her contract of services due to personal reasons and confirm her last date of service (don't mention 'employment'). Don't mention the pregnancy either. Then if later down the line, she finds herself in dire straits and decides to chance an employment tribunal (or Acas now that you have to go through them first) then at least there is evidence of how this contract was terminated. send it recorded delivery and keep a copy.

notkatemiddleton · 30/07/2014 17:31

oh send a copy snail mail as well just in case she's one of these people that refuse recorded delivery. they exist!

Original poster
chimera123 · 30/07/2014 17:36

As she does not have an address right now I can't snail mail her! But I did write to the agency, and phoned them, telling them formally that she has stopped working for me. I did mention the pregnancy though.

OP posts:
notkatemiddleton · 30/07/2014 17:46

Email then.

oh well, if it does all bite you in the arse with a chancey sex discrimination claim, then there are plenty of good employment lawyers out there.

You are welcome by the way!

Original poster
chimera123 · 30/07/2014 17:48

I really have formally terminated my contract with the agency that supplied her, and told them she decided she did not want to/could not do the job any longer. That should be enough surely?

OP posts:
notkatemiddleton · 30/07/2014 17:53

It depends, who does she have the contract with- you or the agency?

Viviennemary · 30/07/2014 17:59

You tried to do her a favour and now she wants more. She is a complete chancer and potential benefit fraudster. Have nothing to do with her attempts.

Original poster
chimera123 · 30/07/2014 18:20

Contract was with agency. I have indeed made it clear to her that although I will be friendly and she can visit my son, no further help of any kind will be forthcoming (except some baby clothes etc)

OP posts:
notkatemiddleton · 30/07/2014 18:40

Ok, but they've taken the piss out of you a bit with getting you to remind her of her Tax obligations and using your accountant etc. I hope she paid for her own returns.

You can still be liable for a discrim claim under the Equality Act 2010 as a 'principle'/end user along with the agency or indeed separately. Not having her actually go to the agency and resign properly naturally complicates matters because later down the line, when she's got no cash and a baby to feed, she could argue that you constructively dismissed her or in fact that you terminated her contract (arguably you did given your conversation with the agency) It's not true but in my profession you learn that people often lie :-(

Good luck, I hope this matter is settled for you now. If it isn't, it's relatively complex so get yourself a (paid for) employment lawyer.

Stampysladygarden · 30/07/2014 18:48

Chimera, she sounds like she's a lovely person who has been influenced.

It will mostly likely all blow over and be fine.

TrendStopper · 30/07/2014 19:39

I really wish that there were more programmes, newspaper articles, discussions about the realities of benefits and 'free housing'.

There are even British born people who have no clue. My neighbour thinks that she can quit her job and claim benefits. I explained to her that it doesn't work like that. You won't get any unemployment benefits for a minimum of 13 weeks if you leave a job or get fired. But she knows someone who knows someone who got it straight away. My neighbour also doesn't think that they will sanction you when you have children. She obviously has no clue despite it happening to me and us discussing it.

Original poster
chimera123 · 30/07/2014 19:54

Oh I am also in a profession (legal-related) where everyone lies all the time, I am well aware! But I really don't think she will try and cause any trouble for me or lie to try and get me into trouble. She does, despite her failings, truly care about me, my family and my son. And she is not bad, just very very misguided and poorly advised (and of a mindset where getting something for free does not cause any kind of guilt unfortunately).

I do agree with the comments about people misunderstanding the system and making poor, even disastrous, choices, on the grounds of total misunderstanding. The reality is very different from the popular perception.

OP posts:
Original poster
chimera123 · 30/07/2014 19:58

And yes, she has been influenced. As far as I can tell everyone she knows is living on benefits one way or another and I imagine she has been told many times oh just get pregnant and you will get free this that and everything. I always in fact admired her for being such a hard worker in such an environment, where all her friends and relatives did not work (and in fact some have actually been living off her (relatives) or getting things from her (friends)).

OP posts:
Original poster
chimera123 · 30/07/2014 20:00

And someone even told her that if she was pregnant her mother would be able to move here to look after the baby, which is entirely untrue of course, and I told her as much, but naturally someone told her that someone they knew did this so she would be able to do it. It is sad.

OP posts: