To not enter my ds for the 11+

[Minifingers]

DS is bright, top of the top set for maths at school and good at music, but his literacy is weak - dreadful handwriting and syntax.

DH wants to enter him for the 11+ for a super selective. His mum has given us the money to pay for an intensive 15 hour 11+ preparation course next week, but I think it's not a good idea.

The grammar school in question selects on the basis of a maths and English test. The test covers level 6 maths and the English test involves writing an essay. DS hasn't had any tutoring up to this point and has not done any level six maths. He's never, in his whole life written more than a page and a half of anything, and his writing is slow and very messy.

DH is pissed off and I know he feels that I'm turning DS into a wuss by trying to protect him from failure. He's also angry with both of us for not having dealt with it earlier. Neither of us has ever done more with ds than support his music and do the things which all parents do - read to him every day, take him to museums, talk to him etc. We don't do regular maths or writing practice with him. Actually I've never sat down and supervised or looked at any maths with him, and precious little literacy.

DH thinks we should just 'let him have a go' at the test. I think it's unkind to enter a child for a test you believe they can't pass when it's for something as important as secondary school choice. Particularly when they'll be sitting alongside children who've had YEARS of tutoring.

AIBU?

Are you sure you can sit the 11+?

Round here the deadline to register to sit the 11+ was ages ago. If you decided today you wanted to sit the test in 6 weeks time you couldn't.

You had to register in June.

Ladymuck

Yes, I was thinking that. In DSs superselective exam there were a few algebra questions, but not difficult for a bright child who has a little bit of exposure to the idea of letters representing numbers. The exams were sold as "suitable for children likely to attain level 5 in SATs"

OP

I am starting to not understand your negativity, given the perceived lack of choice about where else he goes.

Might as well try. I do understand your reluctance to start - feeling like you have left it too late. But maybe you haven't. We too left it late, did some past papers in the holidays, and he did it. He wanted it though - does your son?

Have you spoken to him?
Have you seen the school?

popularnames has nailed it.

Enrol him for the tutoring and take it from there.

Sounds like your DH is far more convicted about your DS trying than you are about him not trying. On that basis would let your DH steer this one than fight a corner that you don't seem overly sure about.

OP, you say you don't want him to try beause every other candidate will have been preparing for an age...

But how can you possibly know that? There are bound to be parents in your position. Parents who were unsure. Parents of late bloomers. Parents who don't 'believe' in tutoring. Parents who intended their DC to go elsewhere but have changed their circumstances. Parents new to the area...

And even those who have been prepared, won't have been tutoring for hours a day for years on end. You just can't get your average child to do that, no matter how tigerish the parent!

My DS applied to probably the most selective school in the country and let me tell you, we were not preparing for years. For one thing, we had no idea that he would be bright enough as he was decidedly average until late on. I'll grant you, he went to an excellent prep, but they weren't prepping for the test like whirling dervishes because the vast majority of boys took tests far later. In year 6 (I'm assuming your DS year) my DS had never even looked at any papers for secondary schools...this I can absolutely hand on heart assure you.

However, even if the myth of parents tutoring from 3 were true...so what? Your DS won't know that their papers are light years ahead of his (which apart from the odd genius won't be true). So how can it hurt him? You seem to be protecting him from a non-existent concern!

Also, even without much prep there is always a chance. Always. I could give you so many examples of long shots that have played out well...

"But how can you possibly know that? There are bound to be parents in your position. Parents who were unsure. Parents of late bloomers. Parents who don't 'believe' in tutoring."

I think 2000 children sat the test last year for a couple of hundred places.

Discounting all the late bloomers, the ones who don't believe in tutoring, the ones who were unsure, there will still be hundreds who have jumped through the usual hoops.

To be honest I'm basing my knowledge on what I know of 5 other parents locally who have entered their children and not got a place (despite most going on to secure places at prestigious private schools afterwards).

"So how can it hurt him? You seem to be protecting him from a non-existent concern!"

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9547771/Adults-put-off-education-for-life-after-failing-11-plus.html

OP, you do realise that article was about people in their 50's, people who took the 11+ in the 60s and 70s? It was a whole different world back then, and education was a hell of a lot more divided into those that succeeded at the exam and went to grammar, and those that failed and went to sink comprehensives.

Please, you're working yourself up and citing all kinds of irrelevant stuff. The consensus is pretty clear on this thread - go for it, you have nothing to lose, everything to gain, you can still achieve a lot in six weeks, you DS still has a chance etc.

But you'd rather just dither, come up with non-existent problems, wring your hands blah blah blah. I'm very sympathetic to the angst parents go through attempting to get the best education for their children. However, and I mean this in a sisterly way, this is becoming tiresome.

I think there is a huge difference in the psychological impact of trying for a superselective and not getting in- if there are 2000 going for 150 places there is no real sense of failure if you don't make it- and of the old fashioned 11+ that still pertains in some parts of the country, where you have a 1 in 4 chance and you will know lots of kids who do pass. Now that can be problematic. I can't really see an issue with an un hyped up kid having a bash at an incredibly long shot.

What I can see an issue with here is whether, if by chance, your child does make it, that a superselective would be a good match for him. They don't suit everyone. To put it mildly.

I took the 11+ and didn't get a place but I am not scarred for life. I had never seen NVR or VR before opening the exam paper. I also lived out of catchment so I probably wouldn't have got a place at grammar even with a good 11+ score.
Had I been made aware what reasoning was and had the chance to practice for a couple of hours I might have had a chance of passing but I don't know how far I was from the pass score because my mum didn't tell me. It didn't define my life and make me want to wrap my own child up in cotton wool and protect him from life's failures.
Children cope well with not passing the 11+ as long as the parents don't behave like it is the end of the world.

OP that link is not relevant to your situation. Nothing bad will happen to your DS if he doesn't get in because he has relatively little invested in it. I think your reticence is becoming decidedly odd!

huk the majority of DC at superselective are happy and thrive. Not all, of course. But then not all DC are happy and thrive in comps, to put it mildly...

The disclosure – in a survey of more than 1,000 adults aged 50 and over – comes amid continuing controversy over academic selection in the state education system

My poor Mother was affected by this also, not her, she wasnt bothered but her siblings were drilled for 11+ it was BIG deal in those days wasnt it.

Not sure its such a big deal now though.

If you saw child genius op, you could see the parents who put enormous pressure on their dc, and those that didn't.

The 11+ is completely different now.

And what about the children whose parents didn't think they were good enough so never pushed them.

Like my grandparents...

"The 11+ is completely different now"

Not everywhere it isn't. But I agree that for the OP's son it would be.

"OP that link is not relevant to your situation. Nothing bad will happen to your DS if he doesn't get in because he has relatively little invested in it."

Except that the alternative may well be a big, rough comprehensive - maybe a very poor one (a good number of children in year 6 in the dc's school ended up last year in the three most socially challenging schools in the borough - the ones where 1 in 3 children have statements and over half have been on FSM in the past few years, because so many of the better comps closer by are ridiculously oversubscribed).

But you are right - he may be so happy in a sink school that it will make no difference to him when he sees his cousins who go to private/grammar schools and who are playing in school orchestras/going on world tours with their school rugby team etc. He may actually enjoy spending his lunch hours getting beaten up by hoodies and pretending to be thick so as not to get accused of being gay or a neek.

"Children cope well with not passing the 11+ as long as the parents don't behave like it is the end of the world."

If the alternative was a good comprehensive with a representative intake of children from all ability and social groups then no, it wouldn't be a problem at all. In fact if we had a school like this that was accessible to us it would be my first choice for DS. But we don't. What we have are a couple of very, very oversubscribed 'good' comps that turn down more vastly more applicants than they allow in, and some really, really rough and scary schools that many of the children round here end up going to.

But you don't allow your feelings to show of course, so if he enters and fails, we will paste on a smile and insist that we are just as happy for him to go to Shiteville Comp.

Gah! Need to drop this now.

Thanks for everyone who's contributed. It is helpful to me, honest!

I get you OP - I do. We're in exactly the same situation and my head feels like it will explode with it all with of course a bit of dollop of guilt for being a big fat hypocrite.

"He may actually enjoy spending his lunch hours getting beaten up by hoodies and pretending to be thick so as not to get accused of being gay or a neek."

Oh why do people continuously peddle this crap??

So if shitsville is a real risk, and he is bright, why is a grammar only entering your thoughts now? Where did you think he would be going a month ago, or even 3 months ago?

Welcome to the London lottery. Most parents I know try to improve their chances by praying, paying or preparing for 11+.

Your ethos seems to be that it is better not to try, than to try and fail. I think you will be happiest finding a school with that ethic. Or possibly even just waiting for it to be allocated to you.

FWIW I stand by my post last night. You and he have little to lose by sitting a 15 hour course and seeing what happens. It will either be obvious that he is not up for it, and there is no point in slogging for a short time, or else he might surprise you and improve significantly when put in a group of bright hardworking motivated children. Whichever the outcome I think you will have the answer as to whether he is suited to a grammar environment or not.

OP, I think you need to be honest with yourself and accept that you have left it a bit late in the day to give your DS a fighting chance at getting to a decent school because of your principles/bias.

I totally get the resentment at having to prepare DC for Grammar School entrance exams but it's just another competition. The competition for school places come in many guises and at least with this one, by preparing your DS you would also be helping him to reach his potential. It's a 'win win' compared to the other competitions out there (i.e. huge mortgage for house in right area, hours spent in Church pretending to be religious).

It's not too late but will require some serious effort from both you and DH and also DS of course. The effort will not be wasted!

Blimey OP, I can see why your DH is pissed off with you!

You stand a real chance of being allocated a crap school and yet you are refusing to engage with a chance to get a selective school because...well God only knows...

But whether or not he tries for the 11+ won't affect his other option schools will it? I am genuinely asking?

His chance of getting into the over-subscribed good non-selective schools will be the same regardless?

It is unfair that all schools aren't created equal but the fact they differ can't be a surprise to you?

The school she will be allocated is not a "shit school"

OP- you are giving us anti selection campaigners a bad name.

Look, whether he enters or not, you will still have the same feeling about the Comp.

So you need to address your feelings about the Comp., because they sound exaggerated to me.

Where do your other children go?

I don't really understand your point OP.

If you don't enter for the grammar, he definitely won't go there.
He may be allocated an oversubscribed "good" comprehensive, he may not.

If you do enter for the grammar, he may or may not go there.
If he doesn't go there, he may be allocated an oversubscribed "good" comprehensive, he may not.

All taking the 11+ does is open up the possibility of going to the grammar, it doesn't make any difference to your chances with the comprehensives.

So whether he takes the 11+ or not, you still face the prospect of "pasting on a smile and insisting you are just as happy for him to go to Shiteville Comp."

But by taking the 11+, you are increasing the chance you won't have to paste on that smile.

You tare acting as if you have no choice., when you do actually have a bit of a choice. Not a brilliant chance, but a chance

yy Kik

I am wondering about the OPs other children because that might be relevant here