To not enter my ds for the 11+

[Minifingers]

DS is bright, top of the top set for maths at school and good at music, but his literacy is weak - dreadful handwriting and syntax.

DH wants to enter him for the 11+ for a super selective. His mum has given us the money to pay for an intensive 15 hour 11+ preparation course next week, but I think it's not a good idea.

The grammar school in question selects on the basis of a maths and English test. The test covers level 6 maths and the English test involves writing an essay. DS hasn't had any tutoring up to this point and has not done any level six maths. He's never, in his whole life written more than a page and a half of anything, and his writing is slow and very messy.

DH is pissed off and I know he feels that I'm turning DS into a wuss by trying to protect him from failure. He's also angry with both of us for not having dealt with it earlier. Neither of us has ever done more with ds than support his music and do the things which all parents do - read to him every day, take him to museums, talk to him etc. We don't do regular maths or writing practice with him. Actually I've never sat down and supervised or looked at any maths with him, and precious little literacy.

DH thinks we should just 'let him have a go' at the test. I think it's unkind to enter a child for a test you believe they can't pass when it's for something as important as secondary school choice. Particularly when they'll be sitting alongside children who've had YEARS of tutoring.

AIBU?

I agree with popularnames. In addition although you say the maths test is level 6 maths, it won't all be level 6 maths just the hardest bits and not all level 6 maths would need to be actively taught. A really able child might be able to work out how to do something at level 6 even if not expressly taught it (though obviously not in all topics/areas).
At the end of his intensive week course, the tutors should also be able to give you an indication of exactly where he is up to (they are likely to finish by doing a practice test) so that would give you more of an idea of how close he might be to target marks.

Are you saying that 26% is not a good % of high achievers?

I'm not sure what it is compared to the national average, but it's half that of the comp a mile down the road in a more m/c area. I also think there's quite a wide spectrum of 'high ability'.

What is classed as "high attainment"?

I think it's their SATS at the end of KS2. Children coming in with level 5's are labelled 'high ability'. That label will apply to the child who got all level 5c AND the child who got level 6 in maths and English

26 % is fine for an academic peer group. It will include level 5s and 6s and a few 4as probably. And will be added to as some of the 4bs start to fly in secondary school. 26% is fine.

Minifingers, I completely understand how you feel with the family pressure to sit an 11+. My sibling's DC all had tutoring and went to selective schools while my DC went to a good local comprehensive. The end result is that you would never know which school they have all attended as my DC did just as well as their cousins ( and were happier!)

You and your DH know your DS better than anyone. Is he a competitive person? Does he thrive under pressure? Is he happy to conform and 'fit in' or does he have a rebellious streak? The super selective schools expect their students to be able work hard and to be easy to educate by co-operating completely. I know I'm making it sound like a boot camp but the academic pressure can feel like that at certain schools.

My advice is to do what is right for your child as an individual. If your DS is bright he will do well at any school as long as he is happy.

You should sit him. You won't regret sitting him, it will do him no harm and probably do him good. You might well regret not sitting him.

Also, it is hard to judge kids. My younger son was not seeming bright in yr4. Much better in yr5 and passed all his entrance exams in yr6. Much to my surprise, now near the top at his selective school. You can't always tell.

"I also think there's quite a wide spectrum of 'high ability'."

No there isn't. In year 7 it means above level 4 in KS2 SATs. I was having a daft moment when I talked about level 4s- I was thinking about top sets at the same time. The high attainers figures for a school relate only level 5s and 6s.

OP you could be me! We're in exactly the same situation. My eldest is very bright, great at all subjects and can piss the NVR papers. BUT like your DS his handwriting is AWFUL - it's to the point of illegible.

We're not in a grammar area. There's one super selective which has thousands of applications for 150 places. Part of the process is a 50 min English exam which will have a big writing part. There's no problem with his reading or comprehension but he will struggle to get points for anything an examiner actually has to read.

Husband & I are both technically against selection. However DS has said he'd like to try so we're taking this approach:

Bowlersarm
Does your ds want to sit it? If he does if let him.

We've mentioned that the edgy cleverest children from all the schools in this and neighbouring counties will be trying and just like a football match, sometimes the "best" doesn't "win" - yes, terrible analogy but it made sense to him and we're trying to support him AND manage his expectations.

Much as I'm against the whole "pay for tuition and shit all over the bright kids whose families can't afford it or aren't supportive" thing, we've actually paid for tuition for him, for the same reasons as you say - if he wants to do the exam, we see it as our duty to support him as much as we can and give him the best chance.

It doesn't sit right with us at all, but there's no arguing that if he got in, it would be fantastic for him we'd have to overlook the fact that not one child currently there has SEN and the number on FSM is negligible

We have been taking him to open nights for other schools though and he has really liked two of them. One would be a pain in the arse journey wise so we've got our hopes pinned on the back up.

Really long winded way of saying I know EXACTLY what your dilemma is but I think if HE wants to sit the exam, then let him and get him the tuition if you can.

Also OP, I'm intrigued to know if we're talking about the same super selective - drop me a hint?

Ad from what you say about the other schools I'm CONVINCED we're in the same area!

Er...'writing' is not the same as 'handwriting'. Just thought I'd point that out. Neither of my degrees are in handwriting. Even though I have rather nice handwriting.

I get that, but when what he writes can't be read because of his handwriting, it's a problem! If he could type it that'd be fine

Teachers that he has year round can just understand it. An examiner on a tight deadline won't bother.

I'm not that worried about it generally as my handwriting was awful until about age 12, but I didn't want to do an exam for a super selective so it made no odds to me.

My middle brother and little sister are both at different (single sex) super-selectives going into year 10 and year 12, I went to grammar until I was expelled, oops and littlest brother is going into year 7 and got into a normal grammar, 2 big brothers failed 11+.

None of us were tutored, we just sat the exam and honestly it has been fine, it has just never been a big deal in our family, the only children I've ever known stress about it are ones being hothoused and pressured by parents. The headmaster at middle brothers school even tells parents that you shouldn't tutor for 11+ unless you plan to tutor up to 6th form.

DS and littlest sister are both in year 5 so will be sitting in a few months, they aren't being tutored either, littlest sister is the smartest of the lot of us so I've no doubt she'll be fine. I'm not 100% sure DS can pass but he wants to try and I think telling him I don't believe in him/don't think hes smart enough would be far more damaging than him failing an exam, so I'm letting him take it but won't be making a fuss about it.

Where we live, most Y6s who are aiming to go to the grammars are tutored. Some are super bright. Some less so. However, even the bottom set in a grammar where we live would expect to get Bs and As at GCSE and A level without extra help or tutoring. 2 of my maths /science focused DCs have been fine despite woefully poor essay writing skills.

With respect Adika, there is a big difference between Grammar and Superselective Grammar. The lowest grade that got a place at our SS this year was 93%. You have to be bright, you have to prepare AND you have to be lucky.

• TheWordFactory Wed 30-Jul-14 14:32:24

Reading your posts on this thread is like being at bottom of sea and finding a buoyant object to zoom me up to the surface to breathe air.

mellicauli, I know the difference thanks. As I said I have 2 siblings at superselectives (Judd and Tonbridge Girls) and one at a grammar. 93% wouldn't get you a place at a superselective here, some years it wouldn't even get you into a grammar.

Beyond - Wordfactory has misread my first post - I didn't say grammar school wasn't a good idea for ds. I said that putting him in for the entrance exam is not a good idea as he's ill prepared for it and there's no way of remedying this quickly.

Adikia, given that children hoping to succeed in the 11+ at the SS near me have to have covered the level 6 maths curriculum I'm wondering how your siblings did this without help from parents, tutors or school - I assume they are at state schools and most don't cover the level six curriculum until near the end of year 6?

" I'm not 100% sure DS can pass but he wants to try and I think telling him I don't believe in him/don't think hes smart enough would"

Who is talking about telling a child they are not smart enough? My ds has not had enough preparation for the 11+, this is why I don't want to enter him.

I appreciate what you say about children not needing tutoring, but frankly it's bollocks. My son would be sitting the test alongside children who are as bright as he is but who may have had months or years even of 11+ focused tutoring. Many will have come from private prep schools where they've been taught in classes half the size of the ones he's been in since reception. These things do make a difference, like it or not. It's the reason why grammar schools admit disproportionately high numbers of tutored and privately educated children.

I don't deny that there are a small number of children who will ace the 11+ with little preparation but they are few and far between. Most children at these schools are clever, well taught and hard working but not geniuses.

Let him have a go.

Stop overthinking it and just see what happens. If you dint ask, you don't get.

yes they are at state school, they had no tutors/extra lessons or extra help from my parents (parents did reading with them/helped with the odd homework question if they got stuck but nothing more than that) It is an outstanding state primary in a grammar area though and generally the entire top set take 11+ so maybe they prepare more than most schools, I don't have enough experience of other schools to say.

I didn't word that last bit well, sorry, I meant by telling my son he couldn't do 11+ when he wants to he would take that as me saying I didn't think he could do it, which knowing my son he would take it as me not thinking hes smart enough.

Does the grammar school specifically state that level 6 maths will be tested, or is that just rumour?

6 weeks should be plenty of time to prepare if your ds is bright and you and he are motivated. The "level 6 maths" tested in 11+ exams is extension of the usual topics, and more problem solving, not necessarily lots of new techniques. He'll need to tackle some algebra if he hasn't already and possibly a bit more geometry, but I don't think that it is a whole year's worth of maths as such.

I can fully understand that you don't want this to be the way he spends his summer. But lots of kids will be working through the summer for the exams, and actually meeting some of the children on an intensive course could give your son an interesting insight. I agree that most children prepare for these exams - that is only natural when it is not a pass/fail test, but it is essentially a competition where the school places goes to those with the highest scores. Every mark counts.

I think a 15 hour intensive course next week (which isn't even full time - it is just 3 hours a day) would be great. Ultimately it can't harm him - it will strengthen his maths and English as he enters year 6. He and you may come away deciding it isn't worth the effort, that he's so far behind the other kids, that he can never catch up in the next 6-8 weeks. Or he may rise to the challenge and want to work to show that he is as able as any other kid in the room, and that actually he could really benefit by being in a superselective surrounded by other very bright kids. But my guess is you'll know by the end of the week whether it is worth doing any further preparation or not.