To not enter my ds for the 11+

[Minifingers]

DS is bright, top of the top set for maths at school and good at music, but his literacy is weak - dreadful handwriting and syntax.

DH wants to enter him for the 11+ for a super selective. His mum has given us the money to pay for an intensive 15 hour 11+ preparation course next week, but I think it's not a good idea.

The grammar school in question selects on the basis of a maths and English test. The test covers level 6 maths and the English test involves writing an essay. DS hasn't had any tutoring up to this point and has not done any level six maths. He's never, in his whole life written more than a page and a half of anything, and his writing is slow and very messy.

DH is pissed off and I know he feels that I'm turning DS into a wuss by trying to protect him from failure. He's also angry with both of us for not having dealt with it earlier. Neither of us has ever done more with ds than support his music and do the things which all parents do - read to him every day, take him to museums, talk to him etc. We don't do regular maths or writing practice with him. Actually I've never sat down and supervised or looked at any maths with him, and precious little literacy.

DH thinks we should just 'let him have a go' at the test. I think it's unkind to enter a child for a test you believe they can't pass when it's for something as important as secondary school choice. Particularly when they'll be sitting alongside children who've had YEARS of tutoring.

AIBU?

It may not bother you but most people would prefer it if their adult children didn't resent their parenting decisions believe it or not brdgrl

Really, whatever, why the unpleasant tone? Is that your normal form of discourse? FFS.

As for resentment, well, I for one have just said that I don't resent my parents for making decisions about which I don't necessarily understand or share their reasoning. I hope to god that I am raising children who are not so entitled and arrogant as to feel resentment over having been parented.
I don't believe that most mature parents make decisions about their children's welfare based on what the child might or might not feel about it in twenty years time. Particularly in a case such as this where the individual's future perception is likely to rely on any number of variables - the kid in the OP could have a miserable time no matter where he goes to school, and attribute it to his parents' choice. Such is life. A parent's job is to weigh the evidence they have at their disposal.

Our eldest is a messy boy who hates writing , he ended up at grammar and has always struggled their with English. They were all over him like a rash in all the subjects where he will get an A*, no support provided in English because they thought that he might get a - shock horror - B.

The more I think about this the more I remember a conversation about how a lot of children would go the faith schools and the local grammar schools would cream off the brightest children leaving your DS to learn in an environment without the most able children to learn alongside. How owls you feel if your own DS was creamed off into the grammar school leaving other children to learn without him?
Just curious about the sudden change of mind and moral stance.

brdgrl Of course parents will sometimes make decisions that their children don't necessarily agree with or may resent in the future. I think that most people actually try to do things that their children won't resent in the future though. You on the other hand don't seem to care much if your comments are anything to go by (e.g. "since when are adult children entitled to question every decision made on their behalf and expect a "good enough" answer?").

Elephants, I agree that those in the top sets work when it matters too but I think it's sad for all involved. I recently helped out a neighbour with her science GCSE prep and she really enjoyed the experience and was thoroughly engaged with the subject matter and full of questions. I was sorry that it was me and not her teacher that got to see the light in her eyes and I was sorry for her that she was only just discovering what's great about science at the age of 15/16.

No whatever, obviously I don't give a crap about my children like you do. I can see how you'd reach that conclusion. [where is the eye rolling emoticon?]

since when are adult children entitled to question every decision made on their behalf and expect a "good enough" answer?
Yep, that's what I said, and what I meant. (just checking!)

I am entering my son for a superselective. I know that he has little chance of getting in even though he is a very bright boy who is good at both Maths and OK at English. I have positioned it like a lottery to him: we have a small chance of success but if we don't try we won't have any chance of success.

You could try him for a mock (see 11+ forum for details) and see how he gets on. Some boys flourish under pressure.

If you do spend some time/effort improving his English, that will stand him in good stead whatever school he goes to.

Also if he doesn't pass - being resilient is a key factor for future success, so that will be valuable too. We all need to bounce back from failure because failure is part of life and learning and nothing to be ashamed of.

Do you know when the deadline for registering your child for the exams is OP? This discussion may be academic if the deadline has passed (it would be too late where I live)

Coo-eeeee
Op
?!
Any chance of answering this question ?!

"I have positioned it like a lottery to him: we have a small chance of success but if we don't try we won't have any chance of success."

Doing the 11+ for a place at a super selective is like entering my ds into a lottery only in so much as a vicious and random bout of norovirus rendering the 500 or so children who are likely to do better than him in the test too sick to take the exam. (excuse my syntax. Tired today and can't work out what to do with that sentence!)

There is nothing 'random about it except for a tiny group of children who are competing for the last 5 or so of the 180 places, who may be having a very good or a very bad day, and where the odd stray mark may make a difference between getting or not getting a place. It won't make any difference to the other 1000 children who will sit the test and won't come anywhere near getting a place. Luck well and truly doesn't come into it for most children.

"Do you know when the deadline for registering your child for the exams is OP?"

September.

"Also if he doesn't pass - being resilient is a key factor for future success, so that will be valuable too. We all need to bounce back from failure because failure is part of life and learning and nothing to be ashamed of."

Yes, you are right.

But I keep thinking about parents shelling out ££££'s on tutoring over several years, plus lots and lots of work at home, turning brittle-faced smiles on their children and saying brightly, 'of course it doesn't matter if you get in or not! The important thing is that you tried!' while all the time weeping into their pillows in disappointment and anxiety if the alternative to a selective school place is a place at a different school they have no confidence in or actively dislike, as is very often the case where I live.

I think children are often quite good at reading parents' emotions.

Hmm

I still think think you ask him. Have an open discussion about what it will require of him, how he'd feel if he didn't get in. I told my son the odds. I told him that if I felt it would devastate him to not get in, then I would not enter him. I told him I thought this would be a good school for him, but that I have every confidence he'd enjoy and do well at the alternative.

Have you visited the school? Does he like it?

This is what drove DS2 - he liked the school and he enjoys challenge.

He was not tutored - we just did some past papers. Had we had tutoring I think that would have detrimentally affected him by increasing the pressure. As it is, we know he deserves to be there.

"OP, talk to your DS, show him the local schools and their websites, and let him figure out which schools seem the best fit for him. He's the one who'll attend the school, surely he should be the one to make an informed choice about where he wants to go"

He can look at the school's websites and hope but the two nearest schools that we'd be ok with are massively oversubscribed, one has 9 applicants for every place, the other one less than this but still a lot. Every year there are a number of kids at my dc's school who get offered nothing. The borough is divided between schools everyone wants to go to (about a third) and schools nobody wants to go to (the rest). Remove all the oversubscribed church schools (we are not church goers) and good schools that we are out of catchment for and there aren't many left. And as I said, those which are left are massively over subscribed.

It's all a bit of a dogs dinner.

But I keep thinking about parents shelling out ££££'s on tutoring over several years, plus lots and lots of work at home, turning brittle-faced smiles on their children and saying brightly, 'of course it doesn't matter if you get in or not! The important thing is that you tried!' while all the time weeping into their pillows in disappointment and anxiety if the alternative to a selective school place is a place at a different school they have no confidence in or actively dislike, as is very often the case where I live.

That may be your impression but I don't think it is true of the majority of children who go to a selective grammar school. My children had one lesson a week (for an hour and a half) with other children for a year before the exam. This was/is quite normal although admittedly some children did start a year earlier. It's not a huge amount of extra work and it doesn't necessarily cost ££££'s.

Eldest dd is at a super selective grammar and I think the majority of children only had one lesson a week for a year or two before the exam. One of dd's friends didn't have any tutoring or practice past papers so it is possible but I think a bit of tuition is good preparation and levels the playing field a bit if all the other children are being tutored.

Miss - I am against selection.

Completely.

But I'm not in charge of the education system and whatever I think, there is loads of selection going on, and my children and family have to deal with the consequences.

This is what is doing my head in.

I think if your child wants to have a go, you should support them.

It doesn't matter if you don't pass, but if you don't have a go, you can't pass, so no harm in trying. Even if you do pass, you still don't have to name it as first choice on your application form, do you (maybe different areas are different).

I personally wouldn't pay for a tutor - have your DH do some practice papers with him.

I would say from my experience that an academic school is the best environment for those who lack work ethic - you end up having to work a bit to keep up with/beat your friends, and it's seen as cool to be clever.

I intend to let my children make the overall decision when it comes to choosing secondary school (and hope they will be mature enough for the responsibility of choosing). You need to start taking responsibility for your own learning at secondary age, and choosing your school is part of that, imo.

Whatever, do you know what percentage of dc's at your children's grammar come from the private sector?

My understanding is that it varies hugely.

Apparently some state grammars take almost half of their year sevens from the private sector. I suspect this goes up a lot more at 13+.

kik you say we should tell our children that 'it doesn't matter' if they fail the 11+.

The rest of your post goes on to make a strong case for children attending a strongly academic school.

So it does matter really, doesn't it?

"I personally wouldn't pay for a tutor - have your DH do some practice papers with him"

Interesting you say that Kikanchen. Maybe DH will get a good idea of where the land lies. Although if he's the one driving this the most (through fear or sibling rivalry) his anxiety may rub off

I think Kikanchen says it's best for some children

Minifingers I'm not sure what percentage of children from dd's school are from prep schools to be honest. I think that most of dd's friends went to state schools though. There is also a private very selective school in the area though so many of the well off academic children may go there.

OP

I notice you haven't answered the question about what your son thinks and whether he has visited the school?

Is this because you've been taken a bit unawares by this and not had the chance to think/talk about it with him?

Not really - I said that if you are a bright but not hardworking child, an academic school can be good, because it pushes you to work. So I was making a particular case for a bright lazy child, not children in general.

When I say it doesn't matter, what I really mean is, you are in no worse a position if you don't get in having taken the exam than you are if you don't get in having not applied. But I would say it's better to know that you couldn't than that you wouldn't.

If we live in a grammar school area in 4 years time, I will strongly encourage my DD to take the exam. But she can choose whether or not to attend the school, if she gets in.