To not enter my ds for the 11+

[Minifingers]

DS is bright, top of the top set for maths at school and good at music, but his literacy is weak - dreadful handwriting and syntax.

DH wants to enter him for the 11+ for a super selective. His mum has given us the money to pay for an intensive 15 hour 11+ preparation course next week, but I think it's not a good idea.

The grammar school in question selects on the basis of a maths and English test. The test covers level 6 maths and the English test involves writing an essay. DS hasn't had any tutoring up to this point and has not done any level six maths. He's never, in his whole life written more than a page and a half of anything, and his writing is slow and very messy.

DH is pissed off and I know he feels that I'm turning DS into a wuss by trying to protect him from failure. He's also angry with both of us for not having dealt with it earlier. Neither of us has ever done more with ds than support his music and do the things which all parents do - read to him every day, take him to museums, talk to him etc. We don't do regular maths or writing practice with him. Actually I've never sat down and supervised or looked at any maths with him, and precious little literacy.

DH thinks we should just 'let him have a go' at the test. I think it's unkind to enter a child for a test you believe they can't pass when it's for something as important as secondary school choice. Particularly when they'll be sitting alongside children who've had YEARS of tutoring.

AIBU?

Mini I am against selective schools in principle. All children deserve the same standard of good education across the board, but like you we live in an area that has selection as well as your bog standard Comp (which is a "GOOD" school but has it's social problems).

My DS has only just finished Reception, and my second hasn't even been born yet so there are a few years to go before we need to decide. I would like to think that when the time comes myself, DP and the DC would go and look around schools, their facilities, speak to teachers about any issues and just see how we feel about. If DC liked it and wanted to give it a try then we'd go for it. I believe the position that we are in we would be really stupid (and unfair on our DC) to pass up the opportunity.

I like a PP suggestion of treating it like the lottery - got to be in it to win it.

It's much more of a lottery than you think because although there are a few geniuses (genei?) the curve is a normal distribution & the vast majority of kids get lumped together with the cut off point somewhere amongst them.

I live near a super-selective and have lots of friends who have a child go there (often only one out of say two children though). I don't agree an academic school necessarily pushes along a reluctant child, my poor friends with less motivated children have been banging their heads against the wall with their children's lack of motivation, and not fulfilling their potential just as much as those in other state schools. If anything, it's worse, their B's are considered failures! They have not gone on to do anything startlingly different than if they had gone to the local comp, their grades have got them to a medium ranking uni.

OP all your reasons for not allowing him to apply are fairly spurious.

You say you want to protect him from disappointment, yet you don't say he really wants ti go there.

You say DC can oick up on their parents' disapoointmnet, yet clearly you won't be remotely bothered if he doesn't go.

You say you don't want to spend the cash on tutoring, yet someone else has offered to pay.

What are ral reasons for not wanting to pursue this?

If you're politically against selection, then fair enough. Stand by your prinicples. Don't pretend it's something else and don't be a hypocrite.

If you think it's the wrong school for your DS then fair enough. Discuss that with your DS and yiour DH. Neither will want him to go to a school thwere he won't thrive, surely?

Well, I would let him take the test, and I say this as someone who lives in a super selective area, and chose not to put my DS in for the 11+.

If you don't put him in for the test, it will always be at the back of your DH's, MILs and DSs, mind that he might have passed, but you prevented them finding out.

Also, most DC don't pass the 11+ in a super selective area, so "failing" really isn't that big a deal.

Having said that, if you are going to enter him, let him have the tutoring. Yes, some parents tutor for years and invest lots of time and money, but lots of parents of bright children only do practice papers at home, and their children are offered a selective place.

Miss - I am against selection.

Completely.

But I'm not in charge of the education system and whatever I think, there is loads of selection going on, and my children and family have to deal with the consequences.

Well it is a real shame that you failed to say that when you decided to argue with parents who had chosen selective education. Instead you chose to argue that their decisions are destructive to the education system and crate inequality and that you don't agree with it. I have previously said that equality is an ideal but whilst we have selection I will use it if appropriate and you told me that this stance was wrong. How has it suddenly become okay now that it is your own son that has the chance of getting into a selective school?
Is it actually a case that you feel things are only unfair and shouldn't exist unless your own child is able to benefit from it?
Are you not concerned about the children who won't benefit from having bright and able children such as your son to learn alongside?
What about the argument that mixed ability classes are not proven to be advantageous to the vast majority of children? If that is the case then how would your son benefit from a place at a grammar school?
What if he tries and doesn't get a place, will you feel angered and bitter that we have selective education and that the most able members of your sons current school have been creamed off by the selective schools?
It just seems like double standards and that you don't agree with other people being able to choose selective education but are happy to do so yourself if it benefits your child to the detriment of others (which is what you have previously said). If that is the case then it is huge hypocrisy on your part.
I make no bones about the fact that I believe we would have greater equality if we didn't have selective education but I am not against selection and won't be using my own children's heads to batter down the equality door.

If the deadline is September the actual test must be a bit away so you've got plenty of time to do more than just a 15 hour intensive tutoring course

Mini from what you have written, to me, it sounds as though you feel a strong sense of fear-of-failure. You haven't expressed what your son thinks or feels about the option to sit the 11+.

Like you I'm not in favour of selection, especially at 10 / 11 years old. In an ideal world every school should be able to cater for each individual child's needs. But obviously in reality you know that is not the case.

What you do have at the moment is an opportunity to prepare you son to sit the test.

I don't consider not passing or not getting into any grammar school as a failure, I don't feel that way and I wouldn't use that term.

If he is bored at school currently, then a short period of tutoring over the summer holiday may kick start a renewed interest in maths and literacy. He might enjoy it. He will almost certainly learn something that will contribute towards his learning overall. It will not be a waste in his overall education (unless the teaching is really poor at the summer school). It will also hold him in good stead for the SATs.

You have a pre-conceived notion of what tutored kids and their parents are like - if that's not how you want to be, then assume a more level-headed attitude. Paying for a tutor will not turn you into one of those "child genius" parents overnight! Nor will you psychologically damage your son in the process - as long as you can remain level-headed and realistic about it all.

Whilst you seem to feel vehemently anti-selection, how does that sit with your DH? As others have posted, whatever choices you make as a family will impact on all the relationships in the short and long term. Hopefully you all should be content with the choices you are making in the next few months.

Glace

That's a really measured post.

I think the OP sounds panicked about the whole thing

Can I just repeat: the schools round my bit of South London are comprehensive. Out of DD2's lot - many of whom have clocked up L6s in their SATs - one sole child is going to a selective: one sole child is going private. DD1's lot was much the same.

If you want to apply to a selective fine, but if your area is anything like mine it's unreasonable to do so on the basis that there are no bright kids in the comps and no culture of learning and your son will flounder unrecognised.

Wordfactory - ds is 10. He doesn't know enough about schools, himself or the future to make any sort of informed choice about education.

As an adult who has already done this once with older dc I'm also flummoxed by the whole thing - it's very complicated where we are because there are so many schools he could apply for, some of which he would stand no chance of getting into, some which he'd stand a small chance of getting into, some are partially selective, some are fully selective. If I and all the other adults I know find choosing a secondary school worrying and perplexing, why should a 10 year old boy find it easy?

All he knows is that he wants to go to a 'good' school.

He has no idea what it would be like in an academically selective environment, what that would feel like, because he's not experienced it.

And where did you get the idea I don't care whether he goes or not? I would bite your hand off for the offer of a place at an outstanding school, especially when the alternative is possibly no school place at all (because the local 'good' comps are massively oversubscribed).

My brother passed an 11 plus scoring close to 100% on the maths and very low on the English. The school had a meeting with my mum who explained his primary school history (crap teachers) and they took a chance.

At A level he got an A at English Lit.

What kind of school does your other child/ren go to?

Mini- tell us about the school he'll go to if he doesn't get into the super selective. What %high attainers, what %5A*-C- that sort of thing. Some of us have been at this school business for a long time and might be able to interpret them for you.

Mother, the top third of the league table in my area consists of private and church schools. There is only one non-selective school in the top third of the league tables.

In my borough nearly 14% of children go to an independent school. Given that most private schools are academically selective or select on the basis of ability in sport and music - well that should give you some idea of the degree of 'skimming off' of talent from state schools that's going on.

I think your problems go beyond what your DS wants, due to how your DH feels and the offer of money for tutoring. I think if you don't do this it is always going to come back up in the future, all the What Ifs.

If your DS was dead set against it, then that would be different. In your circumstances I'd grit your teeth and give it a go amd see what happens.

We all come to this from different situations. I'm writing as someone with a DS who people consider to be 'natural grammar material' and I keep hearing from my friends that their DS's are saying mine will be sitting the 11 plus. But actually he won't as he is adamant he doesn't want to go and I'm not going to push him.

mini I think you're all over the place on this.

I assumed you didn't much care about him getting a place at the SS as yiou said in your OP that it was 'not a good idea'...

And you've seemed somewhat ambivalent if not out right negative, in your other posts.

Now you're saying you'd snatch their hand off.

What is it you're actually worried about? His not getting in, or him getting in?

If it's the later, and you don't think he'd thrive there (based on proper consideration, not on vague, probably inocrrect assumptions about what it's like to go there) then that is absolutely fair enough. You and your DH will need to discuss that, both make your case.

If it's the former, and you're trying to protect your DS from the sting of disappointment, then IMVHO, you are doing him a huge diservice.

Hak - our nearest school has an intake of 26% high attainers.

6 year figure for children eligible for free school meals - 56%

Average GCSE grade for high attainers is a B

It's a good school, but it's very oversubscribed.

Go out of borough to mine.

So which school will he get into?

I would accept the offer of tutoring and enter him for the test. First, because the tutoring will do him nothing but good. He will advance a bit academically, and wherever he goes next year, this will help him. He may extend his knowledge and interest.

More importantly, I think that pushing himself like this will be good for him, even if he fails. The experience of test taking and working under pressure is in itself an important lesson - how you take a test, strategies for managing your time and looking at how best to answer questions.

He may well fail - but this is probably the best lesson of all - not being afraid to try even if you fail.

IF he passes the test, you can discuss whether or not it is the right school for him. But let him take the test.

We are in the catchment for two very popular, massively oversubscribed comprehensives.

There are other much less popular comprehensives further away which he would also stand a chance of getting into.

All of the schools he has a reasonable chance of getting into have very low numbers of high achieving kids.

Thank you popularnames - that's very clear and helpful.

I agree

So your DS only realistic chance of going to seconbdary with a decent amount if like-ability peers is at the SS?

All the more reason to give it a shot.

Also, OP, what were your plans before your DH and his mother came up with this idea? Presumably throw your hat into the apllication lottery, hoping for the oversubscribed good school, but most likely ending up with the undersubscribed low achieving school?

Surely, you're just in the same position? Just with an outaside chance of getting the SS?