To not enter my ds for the 11+

[Minifingers]

DS is bright, top of the top set for maths at school and good at music, but his literacy is weak - dreadful handwriting and syntax.

DH wants to enter him for the 11+ for a super selective. His mum has given us the money to pay for an intensive 15 hour 11+ preparation course next week, but I think it's not a good idea.

The grammar school in question selects on the basis of a maths and English test. The test covers level 6 maths and the English test involves writing an essay. DS hasn't had any tutoring up to this point and has not done any level six maths. He's never, in his whole life written more than a page and a half of anything, and his writing is slow and very messy.

DH is pissed off and I know he feels that I'm turning DS into a wuss by trying to protect him from failure. He's also angry with both of us for not having dealt with it earlier. Neither of us has ever done more with ds than support his music and do the things which all parents do - read to him every day, take him to museums, talk to him etc. We don't do regular maths or writing practice with him. Actually I've never sat down and supervised or looked at any maths with him, and precious little literacy.

DH thinks we should just 'let him have a go' at the test. I think it's unkind to enter a child for a test you believe they can't pass when it's for something as important as secondary school choice. Particularly when they'll be sitting alongside children who've had YEARS of tutoring.

AIBU?

I don't 'think so little of him'.

I think he's clever and interesting and that he loves to learn.

But I'm also realistic in noting that he isn't hard working, and that it's a struggle to get him to stick at something he finds dull or difficult.

I think it's sad that you think I see my son as a failure because I don't want to put him into an highly competitive exam where he'll have to compete with children just as clever as him but who've had years of private education and tutoring.

hak

he doesnt have to go does he should he get in, but its another choice isnt it, I would say the more chances the better in life if you have choices.

I am most certainly entering my own child in , for all the reasons stated above.

I would never ever be able to live with myself for not doing it when a child has potential. In my own family, wider family things have turned sour when a child feels their parents didn't do their best for them...to help them reach potential. One was denied a scholarship to top sporting boarding school for fear it would have been too much for her and mixing with different class.

She has an on going simmering resentment agaisnt her parents for it and now mixes al the time with ex pupils of that and those schools.

"See? This is why I hate selective education so much. It unhinges people!"

I have to say, I do feel a bit unhinged by all this.

The fact that the comprehensives around here aren't actually comprehensive because so many of the really clever children have been creamed off into grammars/church schools/private, also complicated the whole issue for me.

I'd love to send my children to a truly comprehensive school, where the intake represented the full range of ability in the community. That would be my ideal.

But it's not going to happen.

Selection fucks things up for everyone.

Beyond, will your dc be sitting for a super selective? What preparation have you done?

Well, your decision depends on whether he will end up in a form of education that is suitable for him. If you're in Kent, it seems as though the sec mod are introducing more and more grammar streams and generally becoming more comprehensive so he could have the best of both. If you're in Bucks, could you move? Although I know nothing about the standards in the sec mods in Bucks.

But I'm also realistic in noting that he isn't hard working, and that it's a struggle to get him to stick at something he finds dull or difficult

But your his mother and your maternal instinct wants to molly coddle him and protect him. Apologies if I have missed this but as far as I am aware you have no other expertise in this field and he has not even seen a tutor yet, who perhaps has seen many other children and knows better than you of his chances at the exam?

Your view of him as a mother is one slant. is it right that this narrow view dictates this boys future?

How will he feel when he grows up and says - wow I fucking hated that shit school why the hell didnt you let me sit the 11+? Like Harry who loved it and is doing well?

Mini - which parent do you think he is going think more highly of> The one who deliberately held him back or the one who said - well son, I thought You had it in you but your mother said NO?

I also hated doing things in my school much later I was moved to grammer and thrived.

What is the culture of learning and the students' attitude towards achievement like at the comprehensive? If your son is not naturally motivated to work hard, and he goes to a school where working hard isn't seen as 'cool', he could well end up underachieving massively.

Christ, I'm SO conflicted.

If he enters the 11+ it means hundreds of pounds of tutoring between now and the test (September) plus at least 2 or 3 hours a day working at home all through the summer holidays.

He'd need this to stand even a whisker of a chance.

And then he'll still probably not get a place.

Aaargh!

"wow I fucking hated that shit school"

The alternative is a popular and oversubscribed comprehensive, with a 'good' OFSTED rating, not some hideous sink school on a grim housing estate.

Ask your son, be totally honest with him that it's a real gamble with a few weeks intensive tutoring and tell him you won't worry either way.

I was bored witless at primary, I'd have loved to given the 11+ a go (my home area went comp when I was about 4).

Lots of boys literacy is massively worse than their maths (DDs DF at the SS is) If he wants to try let him.

DD2 could have passed the 11+ if she'd wanted to (might not have got a place as they are very oversubscribed and I'm not sure she'd have had the exam technique/confidence to get a really high mark).

She absolutely did not want to! She didn't want the long days, the HW or to compete with prep school girls for places on the netball team. She likes to be at or near the top and given the number of ex private school and L6 hot housing state school pupils she'd have met at the grammar she wouldn't have been.

Like the poster aboves DD she'll get her As at A level if she works, just in a way that suits her much better.

DD1 is dyslexic, she couldn't read well enough or do maths quick enough to do our style of 11+. She does NVR for fun. Her IQ is at least as high as DD2's and she's a far better scientist. It's just her written work will always let her down in other subjects.

"What is the culture of learning and the students' attitude towards achievement like at the comprehensive? If your son is not naturally motivated to work hard, and he goes to a school where working hard isn't seen as 'cool', he could well end up underachieving massively".

This is what DH feels.

Beyond, will your dc be sitting for a super selective? What preparation have you done?

Mini, how is it relavant? Have you done your own research? Google on here, old 11+ threads, look on primary?

I just dont get your reasoning?

So you feel now he has not have enough prior tutoring or support so again your just feeling its not worth it?

Again in years to come should he attack you over this...how can you defend yourself?

Surely its better to say, it was an option we had not prepared for...it came up last minuet but then we did try the very best we could to give you the best shot at it?

I just don't understand how you are going to face him in years to come should you not try and he says, why the hell not?

"oh we hadn't prepared you, and we thought it was too late for a tutor so we didn't try"?

It just sounds bizarre to me.

Anyway I can say no more!

But the whole point of comprehensives is that they're packed with kids who are 'natural grammar material'! If your DS's potential comp is the one I'm thinking of, it's a good school and getting better.

FWIW I have one daughter who would, I think, quite possibly have passed and quite possibly have failed a selective exam at 11, because of her maths not being fantastic. She has now thrived in a non-selective school, where teachers have pulled up her maths to the point where she's doing extremely well in it. I didn't 'think so little of her' before.

My DS didn't sit the 11+ because he didn't want to go to any of the local grammar schools. We are in the catchment of a great state secondary which suits him well. He got level 6 in KS2 maths, and is now working at Level 8 at the end of Y7, so they're really stretching him.
DD, on the other hand, will be sitting the 11+ in September, as she's really taken with a local Grammar school. I haven't tutored her, just got a couple of past papers and done some NVR puzzles with her.
OP, talk to your DS, show him the local schools and their websites, and let him figure out which schools seem the best fit for him. He's the one who'll attend the school, surely he should be the one to make an informed choice about where he wants to go (and whether he wants to practice for the 11+ test)

Sorry if this has already been pointed out but you gave to register your child to take the 11+
the deadline was weeks ago

• Minifingers Wed 30-Jul-14 10:09:56

from my own personal experience your dh is totally right, I really really feel for him.

He's the one who'll attend the school, surely he should be the one to make an informed choice about where he wants to go (and whether he wants to practice for the 11+ test)

perhaps....

I was not able to make a choice at that age though even thougH I was sinking without trace in school at 10, no friends, I just hated the thought of change, it scared me....

Thankfully I was pulled out of that school and moved to much better one, within two weeks I had a best friend I am still in touch with today, made loads of friends, thrived....if it was down to me, though, I would not have gone.

Thing is, children do change, often abruptly, in teenage. And motivation is one of the most prone to change. If he has the basic intellect but is seriously dragging his heels, there's little you can do about it. If however he has an understanding of the work=achievement equation, you might be able to get through to him.

Been there with now 21 yo DS. Very bright, very lazy. Walked his GCSEs with no effort, tried to walk A levels and went less well, nearly walked his degree and graduated with a 2:2 (module results ranging from 25% to 78%), is going on to MSc and has expressed intention (aged 20) to put some effort in and get a 1st. thank fuck for that. Very immature boy. Maturity only now catching up with intellect.

Should I have let him be a slave to his own laziness and immaturity back when he was 11? Well, I don't think so, but only time tells with these things. I don't actually believe that immaturity in childhood should hold back a child, but it does now unless the parents make a serious concerted effort. And in grammar school there would be many tutored kids, but there will also be many bright ones.

I don't know how things are in your area, but is that an access point to grammar school at 13+? Because sending him to sec mod at 11 might be the best option for him, give him time to find his motivation to get out again if it's not good. Worked for my father 60 years ago- he spent years 7 & 8 being asked by teachers what the heck he was doing in sec mod.

Just to rub a bit of salt into the wound for DH, his sister's ds has got a place for September at this particular grammar at 13+, after 2 years at a private prep school, plus tutoring.

So this is sibling rivalry.

Talk to your son.

Then think about what you will do if he passes and what you will do if he doesn't if he takes the test.

Do you know when the deadline for registering your child for the exams is OP? This discussion may be academic if the deadline has passed (it would be too late where I live).

I was bright, no work ethic, and bored to death at 9. My parents put me into a private school and retrospectively, I was more bored than ever. It was strict, rote learning, crap teachers, a crap, exam focussed ethic.... my love of learning was gone before I got there at 10, never to return.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is you need to think about the culture of the schools you have on offer. Would DS thrive in a more creative environment, where he can pursue his music? any opportunities for that anywhere nearby?

Other than that don't stress about the test. By which I mean, whatever you decide (and it will be ok if he takes it or doesn't, gets in or doesn't), don't let the test be a proxy for what the real issue is, which is finding the education that's right for him.

I agree with Beyond.

You sound very defeatist, OP. Yes, you probably should have thought about this before now, but don't torture yourself about it, just deal with what the situation is now.

Even if your DS works two-three hours a day he'll still have plenty of time to play and chill. Yes, it will cost some money. True, he may not pass. So what?

As an earlier poster said, this is a no-brainer!

I wouldn't let my kid decide, but I do think the answer relies, as some have said already, on what sort of kid he is.
And why your DH is pushing for it, and how your DH will act in the run-up to it. If everyone is pushing a child to do something he isn't suited for, at the present moment, that can be pretty dreadful. And for what???

Just personally, if I did decide to go for it, just to see how he did, I would forget about the prep - that sounds more likely to add stress and turn it into a high-pressure situation than the test alone is likely to do.

You should enter him. If he's good at maths then he'll catch on to the level 6 stuff easily. Lots of resources on the internet, KS3 BBC Bitesize for one and also 11+ maths apps that don't cost a lot.

The harder thing to fix is his English but it can (and should) be done if you want to give your DS a fighting chance at whatever school he goes to. Again, lots of resources on the internet and I would recommend the Schofield and Sims spelling books for plugging gaps. If he is an avid reader then the writing will come, hopefully once he has gained a bit of confidence in his spelling.

You can manage this quite easily by building a practise routine into his day. If he plays an instrument well then he'll already be used to this idea.

Best of luck with it.

"How will he feel when he grows up and says - wow I fucking hated that shit school why the hell didnt you let me sit the 11+? Like Harry who loved it and is doing well? "

Because obviously it's either grammar or shit school.

Jesus Christ- this is a depressing thread.

Minifingers please ignore the more unhinged posters. You say that there are no true comprehensives in your area, which implies that there are "ordinary^ grammars as well as superselectives. Could he have a go for one of them? What exams have you already entered him for?