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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

621 replies

DikTrom · 28/07/2014 21:23

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

OP posts:
SolomanDaisy · 29/07/2014 18:26

PigletJohn, what do you mean by 'hate speech that is about 'us''? Is that a list of posters you think are Jewish, to whom you have assigned special responsibility for challenging racism?

PigletJohn · 29/07/2014 18:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

VampireSquid · 29/07/2014 18:30

I was born in Syria (moved here when I was young) and I feel the need to very clearly say I don't support either side. I don't think it's right that Jews have to actively say they disagree with Israel - and also, what is disagreeing with Israel? I know DH supports a Jewish state and the existence of Israel, but is complete against the bombing and other policies. I notice the same isn't required from Buddhists...

PigletJohn · 29/07/2014 18:30

have no comment,obv,

SolomanDaisy

I have no knowledge of, or interest in, the ethinicity, religion or nationality of those people, but they are people who have expressed an objection to the anti-semitic variety of racism. But not, so far, to other varieties.

Sallyingforth · 29/07/2014 18:45

The United Nations are not perfect by a long chalk. But they did agree that there should be two nations - Israel and Palestine, and they set out borders for the two nations in 1947.

Since then Israel has taken over most of the land assigned to the Palestinians.

Palestinian extremists have said publicly that they want to destroy Israel. Zionist extremists haven't said that they want to destroy Palestine, but Israel is doing so bit by bit.

N.B. The above are verifiable historical facts. Stating them does not make me anti-semitic.

AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe
VampireSquid · 29/07/2014 18:47

No, stating them does not make you anti Semitic, but I fail to see the relevance to this thread? It is about European Jews facing racism and discrimination, not Israel/Palestine?

Sallyingforth · 29/07/2014 18:53

I posted it because it explains why so many people in Europe are talking about what Israel is doing.
And that doesn't necessarily make them anti-semitic either.

Mintyy · 29/07/2014 18:58

VampireSquid, do you think European Jews are facing increased racism and discrimination? And if so, why do you think there is an increase?

dreamingbohemian · 29/07/2014 19:12

I didn't say it was the prevailing opinion and I didn't say on MN

But you can't pretend people aren't arguing that Jews have brought this on themselves. It's an undercurrent even on this thread.

Mintyy · 29/07/2014 19:14

It is not an undercurrent on this thread.

SolomanDaisy · 29/07/2014 19:21

I'm not sure which of those posts is more disingenuous pigletjohn. The words you want us to condemn weren't posted on this thread and in no way reflect anything posted here. I have just checked and they were posted by an obvious islamophobe on another thread. On a thread about anti semitism expecting a randomn condemnation of other forms as racism is like wondering why no one has commented on the artificial creation of the Austrian nation state on a thread about Israel.

And it is pretty obvious what you meant by 'people like 'us''. Nice.

PigletJohn · 29/07/2014 19:26

Yes, it is obvious.

What I mean is, a world where only Chinese people complain about racism against the Chinese.

where only Pakistanis complain about racism against Pakistanis.

where only Black Americans complain about racism against Black Americans.

where only Swiss people complain about racism against the Swiss.

where only Irish people complain about racism against the Irish.

So you looked up the thread of this vile racism. Did you, or any of the other people who complain of antisemitism, have anything to say? No. Not a word. Apart from the one person who approved.

cingolimama · 29/07/2014 19:31

Minty, I disagree, I think there certainly is an undercurrent on this thread of Jews in Europe bringing Anti-Semitism on themselves. The fact that this thread has gone off topic and is now almost exclusively a condemnation of Israel says a lot.

FWIW I think increased Anti-Semitism has arisen in part, to a rise in embittered nationalism - this is particularly true in Eastern Europe. Also, the internet has assisted crazy, vicious racists in spreading their vitriol.

SolomanDaisy · 29/07/2014 19:37

Yes, so you were stating that all those posters are Jewish and only concerned about anti semitism due to that.

I didn't read the previous thread until you mentioned it. If I had I would have expressed disgust at the islamophobic conspiracy theorist. Disgust being the appropriate reaction to all forms of racism.

YeGodsAndLittleFishes · 29/07/2014 19:40

OP ...So what can we do? Take an intwrest in our local community and the various 'other' communities where we live and stand shoulder to shoulder to defend one another against attack? Also to show support and encouragement of appropriate legal action, to thank the police for protecting 'us' when they protect others. What can we do? What more can we do? What can I do myself (I'm not Jewish and am usually in a town where few Jewish people live)?

PigletJohn I am not really following your argument about Hamas/Israel. Hamas themselves claim to be a terrorist organisation intent on killing all Jewish people and wiping out Israel. Becoming a political party in Gaza (with the people of Gaza wanting something more radical than PLO failures) hasn't changed that.

I don't agree with the way that this is being handled by either Gaza or Israel, and will continue to hope for a peaceful two nation solution and the end of bloodshed. It is totally irrelevant to this thread though. A few years back there was a rise in attacks on Muslim people. Now there are a lot of attacks on Jewish people. I don't want to see Jewish people leave Europe and move to Israel, it would be Europe's loss. Please can we bring this conversation back on track and keep to the topic of attacks on ordinary Jewish people, property and neighbourhoods, and what can be done.

PigletJohn · 29/07/2014 19:41

SolomanDaisy

Don't be silly.

You are projecting.

Can you not conceive of a person who hates all racism equally?

You say you would have expressed disgust if you'd seen it. Can you help me guess why nobody else did?

dreamingbohemian · 29/07/2014 19:45

If it's not an undercurrent, I don't understand why there is a map of Israel taking over Palestine on this thread. Or citations of all the children Israel has killed (which before anyone asks, I obviously condemn).

TheLovelyBoots · 29/07/2014 19:49

So, if Palestine had killed 1,000 Israelis and there were reports of anti-Islam sentiment sweeping Europe, there would be no mention?

Really?

SolomanDaisy · 29/07/2014 19:49

Sorry, what am I projecting about? And I just said that I think all racism is disgusting, so I'm not sure what you want me to assist you with. Do you want me to conclude that people who criticise anti semitism are unconcerned about islamophobia? I can't imagine so.

PigletJohn · 29/07/2014 19:53

dreamingbohemian

I'm glad I can help you with that question.

Although there is not an undercurrent of anti-Semitism on this thread, there is a very strong and clearly-expressed revulsion at the State of Israel's oppression, killing and maiming of Palestinians.

The maps you mention illustrate the past, current and ongoing dispossession of Palestinian people by the state of Israel, which is one of the reasons for revulsion at the actions of the state of Israel.

Attempts have been made to explain that revulsion at the acts of the State of Israel is not the same as anti-Semitism,one of these acts being illustrated by the map.

It's a pleasure to assist you.

MyFairyKing · 29/07/2014 19:55

I am uncomfortable with people making comments about the 'elephant in the room' (to quote) as it makes no difference what Israel's political stance in Gaza is. Are we seeing undercurrents of trying to justify the abuse on Jewish people? If not, then why even bring it up?

ThunderbumsMum · 29/07/2014 19:56

Yes, a map of Israel is clearly relevant in a thread about anti semitism in Europe Confused

Now who's being 'silly'?

Mintyy · 29/07/2014 19:57

MyFairyKing - I have answered your question several times on the thread.

ThunderbumsMum · 29/07/2014 20:01

You haven't answered it at all, mintyy. Not in a way that makes sense. Maybe you could try again?

catsrus · 29/07/2014 20:01

I am not Jewish, my background is Christian and British, I do not approve of what the state of Israel is doing in response to Hamas, I totally oppose it. I also know enough about my own history to know that antisemitism emerges frequently whenever societies seem to find an excuse for it - and is aimed at individual Jews and Jewish communities who are far removed from any of the events or 'reasons' stated. I too am concerned about the rise in antisemitism ATM, and yes, I do think there are clear signs of it in some of the threads and messages on MN, as there are similar signs of Islamophobia.

It is simply NOT ACCEPTABLE to aim attacks at anyone who is Jewish because of events happening in the middle east - any more than it is acceptable to aim attacks at anyone who is Muslim for something like 9/11. Nor is it acceptable to try to justify any of those attacks by reference to those events.

To dismiss worries about antisemitism because the OP didn't include worries about every other form of prejudice is just the kind of derailing tactic used by the "what about the menz" posters on a thread about women's issues.