AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

[DikTrom]

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

Cote - I'm sorry, this heightened anti-semitism IS racist people being racist, because this idea of blaming every member of a religion is in itself racist. I was appalled by the massacre of Tamils in Sri Lanka, but didn't go around calling for death to Buddhists, nor did I ever think of attacking Calvinists over South Africa. How is it different for Jews?

I was obviously talking about Israeli citizens (clearly, since I mentioned the country's population).

Once hatred is directed towards people rather than states, it is hard to make the distinction between the ones currently within Israel's borders and those living outside, though.

Sam - I don't agree and feel you are sticking your head in the sand. "Ooh they are all racists anyway, nothing poor Israel can do about it" is not helping anybody imho.

If tomorrow Israel agreed to a sovereign country for Palestinians and withdrew from occupied lands, much of the hatred towards it from especially Muslim countries would cool off. Just like what happened when Bosnia massacres ceased and the situation was resolved - it stopped being a rallying call that radicalised a generation of young Muslims.

Cote - how am I putting my head in the sand? I'm saying that it is unacceptable to target people, on the basis of what their coreligionists do, and this seems to be acknowledged by everyone, except when it comes to Jews. This double standard is anti-semitism.

Israelis are in favour of the bombardment because they are themselves being attacked. (When the Germans attacked us with V2 bombers, we pulverised most of their cities, completely disproportionately) with the backing of almost everyone.

You point about the 96% is a double standard as well. When Hamas are criticized, their defenders jump in to say that they were democratically elected (in typical Islamist style, 1 man, 1 vote, once). But when it's Israel in the dock, the fact that the government is doing what the people want is held against it.

it is hard for racists to make the distinction between the ones currently within Israel's borders and those living outside, though

Fixed that for you.

I wonder what the Jews in the uk were doing wrong in the 1970s or the Jews in Europe were doing wrong in the 1930s?

To think I thought those anti-Muslim racists were just ignorant twats. Who knew they were actually confusing Muslims in this country with Muslims from states which they have issues with overseas? Is it any wonder they are angry?

Sam - The heightened anger and hatred you see towards Jewish people is just not only about racists being racists. I do feel that it is a head-in-the-sand thing to say it is.

Anger and hatred directed towards Muslims in the US after 9/11 wasn't about racism, either. It was misguided, hugely unfair, and terribly distressing for people involved, but it wasn't racism. It was human psychology, generalising the enemy to those with association to the enemy.

Until you see this, you will not understand that the problem can be solved and is not about "Ooh they are just racists being racists, nothing Israel can do about that".

Thanks, John Farley - and maybe the BNP targets Africans nowadays to demonstrate its opposition to Somalian piracy and the ongoing politcial situation in the DRC.

Cote generalising the enemy based upon an ethnic characteristic is still racism.

After the 7/7 bombings I remember feeling uncomfortable when I was sitting next to someone in a tube carriage wearing Islamic dress. I am fully prepared to admit that that wasn't just unfair on my part or generalising, but racist. "Human psychology" as you put it can easily be racist.

It is deeply naive to suggest that a withdrawal from the occupied lands would end the problem. The problem existed before gaza and the west bank were occupied (indeed, the occupation came about as a result of the problem - 67 war. Not saying it was right. Just putting it into context.) Hamas has the destruction of Israel as a key objective. I would hope that withdrawal and cessation of hostilities would be the start of ME acceptance of Israel and I support withdrawal, but this is a situation which is so complex, where hostilities are so ingrained that it is impossible to say that a+b will automatically equal c.

"I wonder what the Jews in the uk were doing wrong in the 1970s or the Jews in Europe were doing wrong in the 1930s? "

I know you read this post of mine, because you have a deleted post right above it:

CoteDAzur Wed 30-Jul-14 10:34:54
Having lived both in a Muslim country and in Europe, my understanding is that prejudice/persecution/backlash against Jewish people in these places are not the same.

Europe has historical anti-semitism simmering under the surface for whatever reason (2000-year-old religious grievances? perception that Jews run the media & banks? plain simple racism?) that has indeed resurfaced & gained momentum whenever economic & political crises have happened.

In Muslim countries, the negative feeling towards Jews is based on and fuelled by the suffering of Muslim brethren under Israeli boot. (This isn't easy to believe if you don't know about the concept of "ummah", but it is reality that Muslims everywhere feel that they are one tribe.) If Israel's priority is the security of its people, it would withdraw from occupied territories and recognise it as a sovereign country. But it doesn't, because it expands its land with new settlements every year that this situation goes on.

European anti-semitism may not be easy to address but Israel's problems with Muslims are largely solvable. There will be some who will always hate Israel for the historical injustice that crescent described, but if the oppression of Palestinians ends the irresistible pull towards violence and hatred will end with it. Just like Bosnia is no longer the force that radicalised an entire generation of Muslims that it once was.

Next time, any of my Ds mates are verbally attacked, I won't say, 'stupid racist thugs' I will say 'is it any wonder when you look at the violence in Syria and Afghanistan?' his best mate is from Saudi, he must be like a walking target, poor kid, but is it any wonder?

Of course it's racist -- do you not think there's a huge human psychology behind all kinds of racism? Do you think racists just hate people, that they don't have complex reasonings of their own?

The vast majority of racists don't just go around saying 'I hate X people', instead they are convinced they are just having rational responses to real-life problems. 'I'm not racist, if migrants stopped coming here, there wouldn't be a problem'. etc.

You can call it demonisation or othering or whatever you want, but at heart it relies on racist attitudes -- the inability to see people as individuals but as part of an identity group.

Cote - I'm not sure if the relatives of the Sikhs who were killed after 9/11 in revenge attacks on "Muslims" would agree that it wasn't racism, though it was slightly different there because the host country was being attacked. If the Board of Deputies decided to carry out a suicide attack on the Shard, I could understand why the Jewish community might feel under pressure for a bit, but they haven't and are very unlikely to do so.

"generalising the enemy based upon an ethnic characteristic is still racism."

I can't see how that is so, because the ethnicity is not the problem when the enemy is the enemy because it is acting like a monster. There are injustices and atrocities we are all witnessing, and it is not about "You dirty Jew, I hate you because Jews are and have always been ___ (insert racist prejudice)"

When 9/11 happened, did millions of Americans living in that melting pot of so many nationalities and ethnic backgrounds suddenly became racist?

dreamingbohemian Thu 31-Jul-14 10:59:57
"Of course it's racist -- do you not think there's a huge human psychology behind all kinds of racism? Do you think racists just hate people, that they don't have complex reasonings of their own?"

You're right. The racist hatred and contempt shown by many Israelis for Arabs and Palestinians is however especially bad because it leads them to kill and maim by the thousand.

I'm American and was there at 9/11.

The US is a hugely racist country generally. Can you seriously not know that?? Some parts are more racist than others and it was there that you saw the most hate attacks after 9/11.

Your whole theory is undercut by the fact that people in New York and DC, who were the ones directly attacked, saw the least retaliatory attacks and were among the least likely to support the Iraq war and the whole war on terrorism. These are also the most cosmopolitan and lefty parts of the country.

crescent - it's revealing that you say the occupation of Palestine started in 1948, because Cote has been saying that Israel needs to withdraw from occupied lands, which I assumed meant those occupied after 1967.

But if your saying that the occupation started in 1948 then ending the occupation means Israel has to dissolve itself, which unsurprisingly they aren't willing to do. Your argument plays into the hands of right-wingers who claim that there is no point in withdrawing from the West Bank becaus e the next fight will be over Israel itself.

Fine piglet, I guess the racism shown by Brits was especially especially bad because it led to the deaths of millions across the globe in the colonial era.

It's not a competition. ALL racism is bad.

Côte I do hate posts where blame is placed on Israel for having decent defenses and not suffering the same loss of life. Would you feel better if they did? If we had pictures of children dying that side of the border you would feel less affronted?

The fact is bomb shelters etc exist due to the fact they had rockets entering their country. A very real threat and they did something about it. Hamas was given millions to strengthen their side and create shelters - a safer environment, building materials to stop their people living as they do. Where did that money go? And where are these people in these desperate times? No where near the very people who need them most....

SamG76 Thu 31-Jul-14 11:16:42
crescent - it's revealing that you say the occupation of Palestine started in 1948

SamG76
Just to check that you are not ignorant or insane - do you say it didn't?

wannabestressfree Thu 31-Jul-14 11:21:36
Côte I do hate posts where blame is placed on Israel for having decent defenses and not suffering the same loss of life. Would you feel better if they did? If we had pictures of children dying that side of the border you would feel less affronted?

I don't wish to be needlessly unkind, but if you seriously imagine that the people objecting to the slaughter and maiming of thousands of Palestinians are saying "please kill more Israelis" then you are deluded and have been watching too much Israeli propaganda. They are saying "please kill fewer Palestinians."

Or preferably, of course, none.