AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

[DikTrom]

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

Excellent post crescent

What exactly is "disgusting" in my post, Thunderbums?

Please, do say.

I just read it again, and it looks like a bunch of facts told in a rather mild manner to me.

I think the way in which antisemitism can rise to the surface so easily is a feature of the way in which Jews have been portrayed in that country's history - in particular in religion and in popular culture. I was shocked to discover my own 'O' level English lit books in my parent's attic - and to read my essays about "the Jew Shylock" when we studied The Merchant of Venice - and I was born post WW2. Today the rise in antisemitism is being attributed to the middle east, a few years ago it was being attributed to the banking crisis (try googling 'banking crisis jews'). It is the "othering" of a whole group of people (in this case Jews, in other cases, Gypsies, Muslims) to make THEM responsible for what is happening to US.

There are intelligent and well informed women on MN and I think it's a pity that a thread which could have been a useful unpicking of some of the complex issues has been derailed.

FWIW I honestly don't think that Jews are safer in Israel than in England ATM - though I can see that there would be an urge to run somewhere when you perceive your children are threatened. There are plenty of non-Jews who will stand beside you - upthread there was a post from a Muslim MN who totally understands the fear you feel. The way forward has to be by working together.

Having lived both in a Muslim country and in Europe, my understanding is that prejudice/persecution/backlash against Jewish people in these places are not the same.

Europe has historical anti-semitism simmering under the surface for whatever reason (2000-year-old religious grievances? perception that Jews run the media & banks? plain simple racism?) that has indeed resurfaced & gained momentum whenever economic & political crises have happened.

In Muslim countries, the negative feeling towards Jews is based on and fuelled by the suffering of Muslim brethren under Israeli boot. (This isn't easy to believe if you don't know about the concept of "ummah", but it is reality that Muslims everywhere feel that they are one tribe.) If Israel's priority is the security of its people, it would withdraw from occupied territories and recognise it as a sovereign country. But it doesn't, because it expands its land with new settlements every year that this situation goes on.

European anti-semitism may not be easy to address but Israel's problems with Muslims are largely solvable. There will be some who will always hate Israel for the historical injustice that crescent described, but if the oppression of Palestinians ends the irresistible pull towards violence and hatred will end with it. Just like Bosnia is no longer the force that radicalised an entire generation of Muslims that it once was.

Nope, not confusing at all JohnFarley. I said posters on this thread not the Jews (although I note your obnoxious and shameful attempt to smear me). It's the inconsistency of the position that I was pointing out.

OP yanbu. I am shocked by the extent of the anti-Semitism I have seen on MN alone this week and people's desensitisation to it.

In some ways I think that Germany will cope better with rising anti-semitism than other countries in Europe. Whenever I've seen fascist/far right demonstrations there, an anti-fascist demonstration springs up next to them immediately. I think people there have a better sense of their collective civic responsibility to stand up to bigotry in their midst.

One poster said it, about four posters disagreed with her. Why not take it up with her?

JohnFarleysRuskin

... would you go on a thread about racism in the UK and say, "The despicable people who defend FGM like to distract from their appalling stance by crying 'racist'

I think perhaps, if she had previously written wrote a post saying "FGM is wrong" or "I criticise the Somali government for permitting FGM" and been bombarded by people saying "you filthy racist!" then she might be entitled to say that. Don't you think so?

Er, I am taking it up, on the thread. Your post to me was unjustified, inaccurate and rather slanderous.

And I'm glad to see that MNHQ have deleted it.

Blimey, that was deleted quickly.

Not sure why John's post was deleted

I don't agree with it but it didn't contain a personal attack or any other deletable offence imho.

It entirely and falsely twisted what I said to make out that I saw 'the Jews' as a homogenous mass, trying to smear me.

If misrepresenting people's posts were a deletable offence, there would be little left to read on MN.

But Janine, your post suggests that you cannot understand why posters on this thread are saying two different things. There is an easy explanation, which is that different posters view things differently. It's only confusing if you think certain groups of people should all share the same view on a situation.

...and you therefore cannot be expected to agree with both, or perhaps either, of them.

certain groups of people should all share the same view on a situation

I made no assumptions about people of a common religious belief/ethnicity/nationality sharing the same view.

In fact, one of the posters whose view I quoted isn't Jewish, according to her post upthread.

So why is it confusing that people think different things? Why the confused face?

"your post suggests that you cannot understand why posters on this thread are saying two different things."

I just read through all of Janine's posts on this thread to see what the fuss was about and can solemnly report that she has posted no such thing.

I'm really pleased you do NOT see Jews as a homogenous mass, Janine. Since most posters have different views from each other - often contradictory - I was surprised that you found those posts confusing. Sorry.

Following on from that, it's great that you recognise that some people support the right of Israel to exist, some don't, some support Netanyahu's actions, many don't, but I hope it means we can all stand side by side against the rise of anti-semitism in Europe.

Gosh, I must have entirely misread her post of 9:59.

soloman I must admit I am confused by your posts. You've said that Tesco banning Israeli imports is scary. Why? Do you think Tesco are anti semitic? If so on what grounds? Had we all not agreed that anti Israel is not the same as anti semitic?

For me, Tesco banning israeli produce is because they have not taken the same action in the past over other countries or are not doing it now. Libyan produce (however much that might be) pre rebellion, Russian imports, Venezuelan imports right now and Chinese imports. I would say the governments all have done and are doing horrible, horrible things to either other countries or their own people on a large scale.