about the breastfeeding cafe in Cheltenham?

[NotNewButNameChanged]

Sorry if someone has already done this but I haven't spotted it if so.

I live in Cheltenham and there is a café proudly displaying a sign saying:

"Breastfeeding mums. Pop in and have a free cup of tea if you need a pit stop. No need to eat, no need to ask - please relax "

I am very torn about this. On the one hand, it's great to be supportive of breastfeeding and we know it is illegal to discriminate against breastfeeding mums. But on the other, it's basically discriminating against mums who either can't breastfeed or choose not to. Somehow makes me feel that it's saying breastfeeding mothers are more important and deserving than other mothers.

Am I being unreasonable in being torn?

Santana you are being deliberately obtuse. I am going to call it a night all the best.

I am not being obtuse.

You claim breastfeeding mothers deserve a drink because they get thirsty.
I have pointed out that other people have conditions which make them thirsty, but they are not offered free drinks.

Really Santana I'm offended

There are plenty of cafes, pubs, and restaurants that advertise free bottle warming facilities, whereas this is the first something-specifically-for-breastfeeding signs I've heard of or come across. Just as it would be ridiculous to criticise a business for providing free bottle warming, it is absurdly petty to complain about this sign. I am finding it ludicrous that grown women are actually taking this stance.

And as for the position that breastfeeding is nothing special to be lauded, well maybe for you it's not, but for me it was and still is the best thing I've ever done in my life, the best experience, my proudest achievement. Nobody else has to feel the same though. I think walking up mountains is a nice thing to do, but not some grand achievement that the world needs to stop and give a shit about, but some people think something like this is their most marvellous moment. Neither position is wrong, they just have a different measure of special.

You see Santana you are using loaded language which indicates to me that you have a problem with bfing in general. No one has said that bfing mothers deserve anything. It has just been acknowledged that for several reasons bfing promotion/encouragement is desirable. This cafe in trying to convey that message has acknowledged the fact that bfing mothers may be extra thirsty and offered a cuppa. Anyone else begrudging or offended by this is being ridiculous imo.

The thing is... why does there need to be a minority and a majority? Why can't we all just be feeding our babies and however we do that is right for us, hip hip hooray. The problem comes when some formula feeding mums feel expected to justify using formula, and in doing that, they insult breastfeeding - and some breastfeeding mothers seem so fixated on the fact that according to health professionals, they are doing the 'right' thing, that they cling to the divide between 'us' and 'them' at all costs.

This post, although genuinely and kindly meant, shows the problem really.

Moomin, as a nice formula-feeder, experiences shit about ff, and so thinks the problem begins when bfers are horrible about ff, and that ffers are only horrible back.

Other bfers experience it from ffers and take it for granted that that happens first.

Actually, in the 21st century, all this immature brickbatting of each other is happening simultaneously between loads of mothers at once. If you want to put blame on one side or another for "starting it", you will have to go back to the fifties.

I am using loaded language because that's how this appears to me- that breastfeeding mothers deserve extra perks that the rest of us have to pay for. That doesn't seem fair. Your post to me was also pretty damn nasty.

I really do think the 'thirsty' argument is off. Many different types of people get thirsty due to medical conditions. Why aren't they being offered a free cup of tea? My pregnancy makes me thirsty, my granny's diabetes makes her thirsty.

Never heated up expressed milk in my life, no need.
Not sure what a "false" argument is anyway?
Having children at all is a choice. Many people make the choice not to. Should they object to the freebies offered to parents in many cafés, I'm not sure that has been answered?

Because a cafe would go bust within hours by offering free drinks to ALL thirsty people.

I work in retail. A mother was feeding her very new baby at a table (we sell tables). I said "excuse me", and it was clear she was expecting me to ask her to stop. I offered her a glass of water, and she was thrilled with the acceptance, and the glass of water of course. I think, particularly in light of the recent sports direct (was it sports direct?) case, some mothers may need a bit of reassurance. If you bottle feed you know you can do that anywhere without fear that someone is going to tell you to stop. It's not the same with breastfeeding; there are still plenty of people who think it's somehow grubby. That sign is a positive step.

Queen (thank you for saying I'm nice ) I didn't mean for it to come across as thinking the problem begins with BFers. For me, the feeling of being judged started with the looks you get from health professionals when they find out you don't breastfeed - despite being told I had no option BY the healthcare people in the hospital, I still got disapproving looks from the community midwife and health visitor.

That kind of sparked the feelings of being judged and 'inferior' because of formula feeding. Then you get into reading these mommy blogs and the sort of facebook pages that really do see formula as poison, and aren't afraid to say it (even if you don't go out to read them, you stumble upon them)... and it suddenly goes from a few nasty people, who would probably be nasty whether they had a baby or not, to 'All breastfeeders must feel this way'... and then the resentment grows.

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I think that's where my feelings of being inferior come from. No-one wants to think that they're not doing the right thing by their baby - but unfortunately, there are a few nasty people who claim to speak for everyone, who like to make you think you're harming your baby somehow. When you're already beating yourself up over it, it's difficult to see it rationally as a friendly offer intended to make breastfeeding mums feel as welcome as formula feeding mums - instead, it's a way of excluding you, and reminding you that you're a second-class mum and your baby will suffer for your 'mistakes'.

The parent rarely gets the freebie, the child often does. Not sure what need an adult would have for a jar of baby food!

So why pick breastfeeders to give a free drink to?

Santana is it possible we are reading to separate threads. You have made a choice to interpret this negatively nothing is being implied.

If a cafe offered free tea to diabetics I would think that's a lovely idea I wouldn't demand every medical condition that causes you to be thirsty should be included.

Of course something is being implied here, because breastfeeding mothers have been specifically picked over formula feeding mothers as a group who deserve extra praise.

If you saw a sign which offered formula feeders a free cup of tea, would you not immediately think that they were excluding breastfeeders? I would!

arghh! BFeeding mums need extra liquid OK?hence the idea of a free cuppa, bangs head on table.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, the reason they are offering free Tea to BF mums is because of shockingly low BF rates and a culture in England which is not conducive to BF.

Formula companies spend a lot of money circumveinting the law to promote FF. It falls to HCP to promote BF.

Aarrrghhhh. It's not about praise FFS. It's about encouragement, acceptance, understanding, normalisation... Though I think you know this already.

Not just jars, Morrisons and Asda (dead classy me) both do free children's meals with adult ones. Which I often eat a fair bit off. I think you are altering your argument to keep holding on to your conclusion. So if the freebie went to the child you'd find that ok? What freebie might a baby want? Hmm - some milk? Either heated up in a handy bottle warmer or via a rehydrated, unembarassed mother. It's really the idea of a bfing mother receiving any special kindness based on the very physical nature of her infant-feeding process that you don't like.

Your babies won't care and will have no memory of it and in a few years time it won't matter.

It does make a difference a few years down the line though, if we're all being honest. And as for remembering, that is simply not true either. It's probably unusual as I've asked my siblings if they remember but, I have memories of being very young. And, unless it is just a pleasant false memory I do remember being nursed, not specifically but the sensation definitely. I also remember being denied the breast, presumably when my mother went back to work full-time.

However, none of the facts and assertions that breast is best are saying that ff is bad, just that bf is positive. Therefore why take that message away, and not let it be promoted and supported?

No one is going to be persuaded to breast feed by a cup of tea and I firmly believe that breast feeding rates will not increase until levels of sexism and the perception of breasts as sex objects decreases.

Encouragement and praise are very close bedfellows.
No one is going to understanding breast feeding more because some random woman got a free cup of tea.
Acceptance- well who feels accepted here? The woman getting a freebie over the woman presumably turned down for one because she decided to use her body differently.
Why does one deserve more acceptance than the other?

Thanks for that lovely conclusion Igggi. I don't believe any mother should be rewarded based on a choice she makes. And a free cup of tea is, to me, a reward, something to be really enjoyed. Whereas a glass of tap water is equally refreshing and hydrating, especially in hot weather, but not a treat.

That's really odd logic.

If a pensioner gets a free cup of tea are they being praised for being old and therefore better than young people?

It's a business at the end if the day, breastfeeding - business from mums - cakes bought.

They are under no moral obligation to include everyone ever in promotions or freebies.

Noodle there's plenty of threads on MN where people have recounted seeing no difference between bf children and their ff counterparts. Anecdotal, perhaps, but a lot of anecdotes add up to show that actually no, not everyone notices a difference a few years down the line.

Being formula fed certainly didn't harm me academically

Moomin

I am dreadfully sorry you feel judged. I assure you, the bfers are as well, inc by HVs. I can tell you lots of ghastly stories. Some mine, some other people's.

nd it suddenly goes from a few nasty people, who would probably be nasty whether they had a baby or not,

Precisely! Nail. On. Head.

Those people aren't nasty about ff because they hate ff. They are nasty about it, because they ended up bf, and they can only feel secure in their own choices if they rubbish all other possibilities, so that their own becomes a default. They're like this with everything, not just infant feeding. They feel you ff'ing as an attack. Unfortunately for me, in case you haven't realised, I know some of these people well. Not by choice. She's my mother.

The moment you made them seriously consider the possibility that ff is not only an acceptable choice, but sometimes the best choice for a family, they wouldn't be able to leave it there. They'd spend the rest of their lives panicking that maybe formula was better and they'd failed their child by breast-feeding.

There are lots of things to worry about. My children didn't get colostrum, for example. I cried when I saw a poster about colostrum for the first time, post-birth. And then, I thought, "knowing the information on this poster, is there anything I could have done differently?" The answer was no. Then i asked, "were the decisions I made all for the best of -my- family? If they weren't, would it be the poster's fault or the fault of the hospital?" Answer, respectively, was yes and the hospital. Then I asked myself, "Why am I crying?" Answer: because I feel guilty.

Then I went over that line of questioning all over again, and suddenly the guilt fucked off, as I realised that I thought I'd made the right decisions, and I was just feeling guilty for not being in the right position to give colostrum.

After that, I didn't care that I'd supplemented with formula, either, because it's exactly the same. If I went back, I would still use that formula, and I still wouldn't feel guilty.

Mind you, my mother doesn't know I used any formula, and they're school age now, but that's not because I feel guilty or scared. I just can't be doing with the hassle of her anti-ff tirades!

If you saw a sign which offered formula feeders a free cup of tea, would you not immediately think that they were excluding breastfeeders? I would!

So, when you see signs that offer free bottle warming, do you think they are excluding breasfeeders, and that something is being implied about the feeding method? Lots of these signs exist and it makes no sense to only take offence to one of the signs.

I do agree with Santana in that this idea isn't breeding acceptance. It's breeding contempt - not just from formula-feeding mothers, but from plenty of people wondering why breastfeeding mums are seen as more 'worthy' of this treat than others? Especially for people who don't know that breastfeeding mums get very thirsty, it isn't going to create acceptance - it's going to widen the divide.