to wonder how one could still be a member of the Catholic Church

[winkywinkola]

or any church that has a history of such utter cruelty?

I'm just listening to Radio 4's programme on the mass graves found in Ireland.

I read today that the Pope made some unofficial mention of 2% of priests being paedophiles. So what?

Is there any other institution that constantly ducks and dives to avoid responsibility for the sheer brutality of its actions?

I am aghast.

My sil is ardently Catholic. She and her dd go to church 4 times at the weekend. I've never discussed this with her but I am keen to know how modern Catholics - or those of other religions - reconcile their religion with such seemingly cruel institution.

Provocative? Perhaps.

Irish society has been going through a huge metamorphosis since the early 90's when the Catholic abuse scandals first came to light. Many Irish people are far ahead of you on this issue winky

Yes sqoosh - also I think a Catholic education is a good way to ensure your child doesn't end up a religious fundamentalist. Nothing like years of being bored to tears in Mass & religion classes to put you off church for life. None of my friends from school go near a church apart from hatches, matches and dispatches.

Yes! The day I turned 18 my parents finally stopped enforcing Sunday mass on me. What a 'blessed' day that was.

There's definitely evidence here in NZ that the Church relocated paedophile priests to different parishes rather than report them to the police.

Many Irish people are far ahead then me on the scandals? Well, ring a ding ding. And?

Did the Carholic Church hide paedophile priests?
Yes. Off the top of my head, other institutions that are known to have hidden or covered up for employees include: the Presbyterian Church, Church of England, the Mormons, the BBC, the monarchy, several sporting institutions, the Boy Scouts, multiple schools, children's homes, doctors' surgeries...

Other places too. But we are behind on the times

It's your tone, you're acting as though people in Catholic societies haven't considered any of these issues.

All hail winkywola, she's listened to a Radio 4 programme!

You're not engaging in any kind of discussion , you're just being needlessly aggro.

Wrong. I was asking what people of the faith thought and did to manage these issues within their faith.

And what rot to the "all hail Winky. She listened to a Radio 4 programme".

That is just utter utter bitchiness.

Is one not allowed to generate discussion and questions as a result of what had hears/ sees / reads?

Perhaps not.

Goodness me! Is one not allowed challenge an OP?

Perhaps not.

You remind me of a parish priest I used to know.

But winky, there is a huge difference between this -
asking what people of the faith thought and did to manage these issues within their faith
and this -
AIBU to wonder how one could still be a member of the Catholic Church
or
I couldn't be part of such a Church
Do you see how your posts might come across as not provocative, but judgmental and rude? I honestly can't tell if you mean it or not.

Perhaps this is missing your point, but he said there are 8000 paedophile priests because it's simple statistics based on studies of the population as a whole. There are probably 8000 paedophile police or 8000 paedophile doctors or whatever too.

I don't think he has a list of them.

YANBU. My dad left the church some forty years ago when he was in his early twenties. He said he was appalled by what was going on back then ... they were heavily implicated in what happened in Europe in WW2 and dad reckoned some people were smuggled out to Australia and other new world colonies by the church. Then I read stuff like the 'ninos robados' cases in Spain (and elsewhere) where hundreds of thousands of babies were kidnapped from their (often Catholic) parents on the pretext of being stillborns/physical deformities leading to early death and I think this is not a case of a few bad apples, it's organized crime from one of the richest institutions in the world.

It doesn't sound like this documentary was too informative. The mass grave in Tuam may or may not be a mass grave. The site was also a famine workhouse so it's likely there are people buried all over the site. They may yet find the childrens' graves, but there's no certainty yet.

We do know that it's not a cover up as such, because all of the children have death certs and reasons for death recorded.

Also, the government have announced an inquiry.

One of my best friends who was previously a committed catholic left the church because she just could not stick its attitude to child abusers amongst its priests.

I don't think it's any answer to try pointing to other religions - that's a classic "Look over there" tactic and doesn't advance the discussion at all. It's not as if the OP is suggesting that every other religion is faultless, and it does not make the conduct of the Catholic church one jot more excusable.

for Mother Teresa

Don't get me started on that vile con artist.

OP

I think some of the evils of the RC church, certainly in the past, was the bizarre notion of 'pergutory on earth' so if you went to be a nun and said you wanted to work with old people and you didn't want to work with children as you had no understanding of them and didn't like children, then you would be sent to work with children.

'And the existence of these mass graves has only emerged to the media and the public in the last couple of months.

Who knew about them before they became public knowledge?

Were they kept secret? If so by whom? And why?'

They weren't 'secret' as it was thought that they were famine graves.

I have a problem with a LOT of Catholic teaching and attitude anyway before we even get onto abusive priests and nuns.

Of course there are lots of very nice Catholics but I do have difficulty in understanding why they have remained with the Church as more and more has been revealed. Clearly there have been huge cover-ups. How can you remain in an organisation like that? There are plenty of other Christian religions you could turn to and continue to worship. You can still have Faith.

Having said that, I do like a lot of what I see, hear and read about Pope Francis and think he is a very genuine man and will do a lot of good for the Catholic church.

A strange combination of blind faith and Stockholm Syndrome best explains it.

I think what I find troubling is that there doesn't appear to have been a groundswell among the catholic laity which says to the hierarchy "we remain Catholics, but until you actually move to put your house in order we will not go to Church or put money in the collection plate"

Empty pews and empty offertory boxes would concentrate the minds of the hierarchy.

Of course there are lots of very nice Catholics but I do have difficulty in understanding why they have remained with the Church as more and more has been revealed. Clearly there have been huge cover-ups. How can you remain in an organisation like that?

I am repeating myself, but then, a lot of the anti-Catholioc posts here are repetitive too:

Can you tell me why people still pay television licensing fees, why they still send their children to state schools, why they support the monarchy, and why they still support various sporting institutions? Even where those have a long history of institutionally covering up offenses against women, children, and minorities???

It isn't a 'look over there' defense, as another poster has claimed, to point out that these institutions, and other churches, are also guilty of cover-ups and abuse. It is, however, relevant to ask why Catholics are expected to abandon their institution (rather than to demand change from it, or to adapt their relationship to it, as most Catholics are doing, have done and continue to do), whereas others are not seen as hypocrites or treated with such derision (and there is a lot of derision for Catholics seeping through this thread, make no mistake) for continuing to be a member or supporter of other institutions.
If you are reading this, look to your own life. Where are you lending tacit support to an institution which has been guilty of hiding, facilitating, supporting abusers???

Are you happy with every action of your disgraceful and murderous government? No? Then I suppose you are packing your bags to move? Burning your passport? Or are you going to stay and are you going to campaign and speak up and talk to others in the community in which you live? Are you going to turn your back on your nation and its cultures, or are you going to stay and celebrate what is good and beautiful, while recognising what is vile and in need of repair?

There are plenty of other Christian religions you could turn to and continue to worship. You can still have Faith.

Firstly, are you a member of a religion yourself? If so, could you just "switch" to another? I think you are misunderstanding what faith consists of for many people.

Secondly, there are huge numbers of people - not just here but in places where Catholicism is the majority religion - for whom Catholicism is not just a set of beliefs, but a culture, a community and a way of life.

To be clear, the "you" in my post above was a general "you"; I have quoted NotNew, but her posts are representative of many others here, I am not trying to single her out.

Empty offertory boxes in my parish, Hakluyt, means less money for the weekly sessions organised by the priest to help asylum seekers meet new people and feel less isolated, or the music group for kids, many of whom are from warzones, terrified of everything and barely speak English.

That might work in a naice area but the people who suffer most in poorer Catholic parishes, if parishioner support is withdrawn, are the parishioners themselves, not the bigwigs in the Vatican. So it's not that simple.

brdgrl - I'm a man, actually, just for reference.

Firstly, you are not comparing like with like in your counter argument previous post. For the simplest example, it is against the law not to pay a licence fee if you have a TV. It is not against the law not to worship at the Catholic Church. And I do not believe that there were loads of people in the hierarchy of the BBC involved in institutionalised abuse of children in anything like the scale that has taken place within the Catholic church. There are far more people speaking out about the appalling physical abuse they suffered at the hands of nuns in Ireland, let alone sexual abuse by priests, than are complaining about being beaten while employed by the BBC or on their premises.

Do I think this country is perfect? No. But it's a lot better than others.

Yes, I have problems with the Catholic Church both on a fundamental level of belief and their general practices and a personal one.

I'm actually Baptist, as it happens, and when some things happened in my church that I felt was wrong, I left that church. I wasn't the only one. Some found another Baptist church. Others went CofE. Others went Methodist. They kept their Faith but they didn't have to keep their particular brand of religion.